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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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meramarina
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 Message 2561 of 3959
15 August 2011 at 6:22pm | IP Logged 
Congratulations on your multiconfused million!
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Iversen
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 Message 2562 of 3959
15 August 2011 at 6:53pm | IP Logged 
I did notice the visitor count, and it may have passed the 1 mio. mark before I have finished my answer to Sprachprofi.

ESP: Origine mi ne volis partopreno pli ol tri tagojn (Sabato ĝis lundo), posti mi rezervis hotelĉameron ĝis mardo - merkredi estis paŭza tago, kaj mi estis denove al mia laboro. Mi skribis ion ĉi tie al HTLAL al 27., kaj ankaŭ faris videon ... kaj kiam poste remarkis ke mi forgesis multajn akusativa "no"jn mi faris novan videon pri tio. Do ĉiuj tutaj miaj rimarkoj fariĝis antaŭ la fino de la kongreso.

Mi aŭskultis Esperanton por 4 tagoj, kaj fine mi povus kompreni preskaŭ tuton. Sed mi ne parolis multe - se Fasulye ĝis ne estis tiam mi posible lasos la kongreso sen paroli dum pli ol kvin minutoj entute. Mi klopodis pensi sole en Esperanto kaj tio iris bone, sed ĉiam mi parolis mi metis kelkajn Italajn vortojn en mia parolado (mi venis rekte de Italio tra Berlino) aŭ mi forgesis iujn tute bonekonatan vorton, kaj tiam mi divenis tute konfuza. Mia parolado ne estis sukceso, sed mi povus pensi por kvar tagoj nur en Esperanto kaj tio estis sukceso.

Estos tro fari rimarkojn pri tuto ĉio kion mi aŭdis ĉe la kongreso, sed min impresis abunde la elokventeco de la plimulto de la partoprenantoj. Mi trovis iujn temojn tro mistikajn (inter kiuj estis lekcio sur H.C.Andersen, kiu degeneris en lekcio pri la Dana mistikulo Martinus) - kompreneble mi ne prizorgis la plej spiritegajn lekciojn.

Mi eĉ iris al komencanta kurso en Esperanto - kurso tute organizita kurso organizita konforme la natura metodo, kie la lingvo estas instruiĝita kun ludoj kaj dialogoj nur en esperanto - kaj kiel mi eltrovis ne estis permesita alrespondi kun vortoj kiojn vi ne aŭdis el la instruisto direkte. Ĉi tiu ne estas mia stilo de lernado - sed por nur unufoje estis tre amuza. Mi ankaŭ partoprenis en montrita de "Dua vivo", virtuala mondo kie unu grupo de esperantistoj establis sian propran malgrandan angulon kun lekcioj, virtualaj libroj kaj aliaĵoj en Esperanto, Ĉi tiu estas tre interesa koncepto, kaj mi pensas ke estus grava parto de nia estonteco.

Unu el la unuaj tagoj mi aŭskultis diskuton pri la sinteno pri ŝanĝoj de la lingvo inter unu tradiciisto kaj unu reformisto. Unu kialo pro la disfalo de la Volapüka movado estis tio, ke sia fondinto Schleiero eksplicite malpermesis iun alian de ŝanĝanti aŭ pliigi lian inventaĵon. Zamenhof estis multe pli pragmata. Propra, mi estas pli proksima al la reformisto sinteno, sed kompreneble vi ne povas ŝanĝi la lingvon fundamente sen kaŭzi konfuzon, precipe ne por lingvo kun malmultaj denaskaj parolantoj. Estis surprizo por mi ke neniu iu faris la komparon kun la Latina lingvo, kaj mi ne estis preta je diri ion - kun tielaj eminentaj parolantoj prezentaj (el kiuj kelkaj denaskaj parolantoj laŭ la preciza senco de ĉi tiu vorto).

--

The Esperanto rant about is an answer to Sprachprofi who wondered why I hadn't written about the Univeral Esperanto Congress in Copenhagen, which took place in July. But I only participated in the first half - i.e. until the 'program-free' day - and then I was back at my job. I actually commented here in this log and I made two videos, but of course these thing came before the end of the congress which may have caused some confusion.

Among the things I mention above there are several things with broader relevance, such as the use of "Second Life" to replace actual physical contact with other speakers of small and widely dispersed languages. I also participated in a beginner's course (although at least for the written version of the language I'm strictly not a beginner any more) - the perspective in this is that I now have had my ideas about the hardcore natural method confirmed: fun and game if it is just once, but unfortunately also fun and game and limited learning in the long run.. although I do recognize that some of the participants may get rid of their reticence about speaking a language badly. Other prejudices were actually also reinforced, such as the notion that some esperantists have a mysticist bent, and that there still are a few who believe that Esperanto can play a role in furthering world peace and things like that. Finally the discussion about the amount to which you can allow changes to a language was very interesting for me. Generally I tend to follow a twopronged tactic: welcome changes while fighting for those things that are gliding out of the use among the most fluent speakers. And speaking about fluehnt speakers: many participants were extremely eloquent, although it generally was possible to guess where they came from. And there were actually native Esperanto speakers present, i.e. people who had learnt to speak the language as children from their parents.

On the way home I made an exception from my normal reluctance to read fiction so I read my copy of the Hobbit in Esperanto.



Edited by Iversen on 15 August 2011 at 6:59pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2563 of 3959
15 August 2011 at 6:54pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
I did notice the visitor count, and it may have passed the 1 mio. mark before I have finished my answer to Sprachprofi.


It did.
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Fasulye
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 Message 2564 of 3959
15 August 2011 at 7:14pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I did notice the visitor count, and it may have passed the 1 mio. mark before I have finished my answer to Sprachprofi.


It did.


ESP: Korajn gratulojn kun tiom multe da legantoj (= pli ol unu miljono) de via Multekonfuzita Logo.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 15 August 2011 at 7:17pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 2565 of 3959
15 August 2011 at 7:35pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

Mi aŭskultis Esperanton por 4 tagoj, kaj fine mi povus kompreni preskaŭ tuton. Sed mi ne parolis multe - se Fasulye ĝis ne estis tiam mi posible lasos la kongreso sen paroli dum pli ol kvin minutoj entute.


Mia korektado:

Mi auxskultis Esperanton dum 4 tagoj kaj finfine mi povis kompreni preskaux cxion. Sed mi ne parolis multe. Se Fasulye ne estus tie, mi eble forlasus la kongreson sen paroli pli ol 5 minutojn entute.

Felicxe por mi ne estis malfacile kontakti novajn homojn - parolante Esperanton!

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 15 August 2011 at 8:14pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 2566 of 3959
15 August 2011 at 9:31pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Unu el la unuaj tagoj mi aŭskultis diskuton pri la sinteno pri ŝanĝoj de la lingvo inter unu tradiciisto kaj unu reformisto. Unu kialo pro la disfalo de la Volapüka movado estis tio, ke sia fondinto Schleiero eksplicite malpermesis iun alian de ŝanĝanti aŭ pliigi lian inventaĵon. Zamenhof estis multe pli pragmata. Propra, mi estas pli proksima al la reformisto sinteno, sed kompreneble vi ne povas ŝanĝi la lingvon fundamente sen kaŭzi konfuzon, precipe ne por lingvo kun malmultaj denaskaj parolantoj.


ESP: Mi ne cxeestis cxi-tiun prelegon, sed mi bone konas cxi-tiun diferencon inter Volapuko rilate al Schleyer kaj Esperanto rilate al Zamenhof, cxar mi devis pristudi la tutan evoluon de la lingvo Esperanto por mia Nederlanda Esperanto-ekzameno en 2004. Schleyer estis tute strikta pri sia lingvo kaj volis nur tutsole decidi pri sia lingvo - kaj fakte tio malhelpis la disvastigxon de Volapuko.

Fasulye



Edited by Fasulye on 15 August 2011 at 9:32pm

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Chung
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 Message 2567 of 3959
16 August 2011 at 4:28am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
I had a look at the situation of Frisian Friday (because of Chung's new Germanic profile) and was somewhat perplexed to see that several sources claimed that there are round 300.000 Frisian-speakers in the Northern part of the Netherlands, i.e. half the local population. This seemed even more unlikely given that the other variants of Frisian are close to extinct in the wild, and that I recently have seen equally extravagant claims for Friulian - where I knew from personal experience that a normal eavesdropping tourist almost exclusively will hear Italian. However a possible explanation was unwittingly given at neon/niederlandistisk/fu-berlin.de, namely that a new kind of Frisian has developed, namely 'town-Frisian' - rooughly Frisian pronunciation (and partly grammar) + Dutch words. And then things suddenly looked more likely because that is exactly what has happened to Scots: most Scots walk around speaking their language with the local pronunciation, but the 'difficult' words of true Scots have been replaced by English words. And just about everybody in Scotland spell like the Saassenachs do, because there isn't economy in producing books in true Scots. So 300.000 persons who have a Frisian pronuncation of Dutch words sounds like something that could happen, but I doubt that there are 300.000 hardcore speakers of the real mcCoy around these days.


I found this on Peter Meijes Tiersma's website
http://www.languageandlaw.org/FRISIAN/FRISIAN.HTM wrote:
1.3.3. The status of Frisian

For many of the years that Friesland has been part of The Netherlands, some dialect of Dutch was the prestige language and Frisian was relegated to the status of “farmers’ language.” As such it was used almost exclusively in the home and in social gatherings in rural settings. In the schools, in church, in the cities, and in most governmental offices the medium of communication was some Dutch dialect. A person who spoke Frisian in such Dutch language domains was not seen as making a statement that Frisian could be used in speaking to, for example, a doctor, but was generally regarded as too ignorant or provincial to speak Dutch to someone who obviously deserved more respect than to be addressed in a peasants’ tongue.

[...]

A study undertaken in 1980 sampled the language attitudes of a representative group (some 1100) of the approximately one-half million inhabitants of the province (Gorter et al., 1984). It was discovered that approximately 54% of the respondents considered Frisian a first language. Some 73% claim to be able to speak it, and 94% can understand it. The percentages of those who can read the language (65%) and especially those who can write it (10%) are considerably lower. It should be emphasized that this survey includes all of the province, even those areas which have been essentially non-Frisian speaking for centuries. In terms of language loyalty, it is interesting that 52% of those sampled speak exclusively Frisian to a spouse/partner, and that another 4% speak both Frisian and some Dutch dialect (Town Frisian, Standard Dutch, etc.). Approximately 24% use Standard Dutch exclusively for this purpose, while 13% use a local dialect (mainly Town Frisian or a Saxon dialect). Of those in the sample who speak Frisian, only 60% speak it to a shopkeeper, and only 42% report that they converse with the doctor in their first language. Apparently, some Frisians fear that people of perceived higher social status (who are often a more mobile segment of the population and therefore are less likely to work in their area of birth) either will not understand Frisian or will find it impolite to be addressed in the local language.
(bolding done by me)

The numbers are from 1980 and based on the survey's results, I'm left to gather that roughly 250 000 people speak Frisian as a first language (presumably meaning any language/variant/dialect that would be covered by "Frisian").
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Iversen
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 Message 2568 of 3959
16 August 2011 at 12:27pm | IP Logged 
That's quite impressive for a language I had categorized as moribund.


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