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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2865 of 3959
23 March 2012 at 12:09pm | IP Logged 
IR: Chóipeáil agus staidéar mé inné trí féinphortráidí de múinteoirí ó Ghaelscoil Uí Dhochartaigh. Is maith leo ceol, spórt, leanaí, agus is maith liom mo fhoclóir.

Yesterday I studied three selfportraits of teachers from that Gaelic school I wrote about a few days ago, but it is hard to write about anything in Irish without my paper dictionary - the dictionaries on the internet couldn't give me something as simple as a translation of "selfportrait", and at least one of them could not even translate "portrait". I have constructed "féinphortraid", but don't know whether it is correct. I prefer my paper dictionary.

GR: Κάποτε η ελληνική γλώσσα ήταν εξίσου δύσκολο για εμένα όπως είναι σήμερα η Ιρλανδική. Αλλά χθες έχω αντιγράψει και μελετηθεί μια ολόκληρη σελίδα για της 'μνημείας' στην Αθήνα από τον οδηγό μου, και παρόλο που κατέγραψε πρόχειρα μια σειρά από λέξεις, θα μπορούσα να διαβάσα την σελίδα χωρίς λεξικό αν χρειάστηκε να το κάνω. Αλλά δεν έχω ακούσει (ή μιλήσει ) την ελληνικά για αρκετούς μήνες.

Once upon a time Greek was as difficult to read for me as Irish is now, but when I took my good ol' guide to Athens yesterday evening and copied/read a page about monuments I could in principle have read the whole thing without a dictionary if need be. I did note down a number of words, but mostly just to push them towards active status, only in a couple of cases to get their meaning. Of course I may be geared towards this specific kind of texts, but as a whole my Greek reading skills are progressing nicely. The problem right now is that I don't hear any Greek or try to speak it - thinking in a language is good, but I can't possible know whether my pronunciation is totally off the mark. I'll discover that the hard way next time I visit the country.

ES: Mi ankaŭ kopiis kaj legis kelkajn malnovajn printadojn de leteroj el profesoro Culbert pri la nombro de parolantoj de esperanto kiujn mi delonge trovis en la interreto. Li skribas 1969 ke "La nombro de Esperantaj parolantoj tutmonde hodiaŭ estas proksima duona miliono", sed forestante postaj esploroj, la nombro vera de parolantoj hodiaŭ estas nekonata - ĝi povas esti pli alta, ĝi povas esti pli malalta. La Esperanta Wikipedio resumas la diskuton pri la nombro en ĉi tiuj vortoj: "La plej multaj taksoj pri la tutmonda parolantaro varias inter 100 mil kaj 1,5 milionoj. La diversaj taksoj verŝajne priskribas malsamajn lingvonivelojn kaj malsaman oftecon de uzado: 100 mil celas la kvanton de homoj, kiuj regule uzas Esperanton, 500.000 inkluzivas tiujn, kiuj de tempo al tempo uzas la lingvon, 2 milionoj (Culbert) ankaŭ tiujn, kiuj jam dum multaj jaroj aŭ jardekoj ne plu uzas la lingvon."

I also copied a letter from the late professor Culbert who had made some surveys to find out about the total number of speakers of Esperanto and published an estimate of around 2 million speakers worldwide. As I understand the letter he wrote about two million active and current speakers, but according to the Esperanto Wikipedia his two million speakers include those who once spoke it, but not necessarily have kept it alive - and in the absence of later research I think this is the more likely scenario. However even 100.000 active users who use the internet actively can weigh as much in the decisions of a language learner as 100.000.000 persons in a far away country who mainly speak the language among themselves.   

Some estimates from the English Wikipedia:

"Finnish linguist Jouko Lindstedt, an expert on native-born Esperanto speakers, presented the following scheme[46] to show the overall proportions of language capabilities within the Esperanto community:
1,000 have Esperanto as their native language.
10,000 speak it fluently.
100,000 can use it actively.
1,000,000 understand a large amount passively.
10,000,000 have studied it to some extent at some time."



SW: Efter midnatt visade svensk TV1 ett program om dialekt. Utgångspunkten var att det finns två grupper i Sverige som har "lång" /i/: några samhällen i Bohuslän och rika människor på Östermalm i Stockholm. Reportern resta till Smögen i Bohuslän på vinteren för att lyssna på dialekten där, och han hörde verkligen något i stil med /iiye/ för / i /. Etterpå resta han tillbaka till Stockholm för att prata med folk där, och de kände väl den 'fina' Lidingsö accent, men visste inte varifrån den kom. Men gamla ljudinspelningar visar att detta uttal är relativt moderna. Reporterns hypotes är att de rika stockholmarna har lärt sig seg uttalet som sommargäster i Smögen som barn - många hade varit på orten år efter år och de tog omedvedant det exotiska långa /i/ med hem eftersom det visade att de hade råd att åka på semester.

After midnight Swedish TV had a program about dialects. The basic question was: there are two places in Sweden where a special long 'i' is heard (pronounced something like /eeeeyeu/ ): a poor beach resort in Bohus Län at the West coast and the posh suburb Östermalm in Stockholm. How come? The final hypothesis was that children from Östermalm had unwittingly absorbed the sound from the poor but pittoresque people at the West Coast during their summer holidays, and they had used it partly for fun, but also because it indicated that their stinking rich families could afford to spend their summer holidays far from home - and 100 years ago Bohus Län was far enough from Stockholm to be exotic.

ES: Nokte, kiam mi vere devis dormi, mi venis pensi pri la risko ke la venonta kongreso en Irlando sur malkara lingvolernado povus ignori la metodojn por hejmo studo, ĉar la subtenantoj de la natura metodo estas pli buntaj kaj amuzaj. Kun mia malbona nivelo de esperanto ne estas multe kiun mi povas fari por ribonigi ĉi tiun afaron, sed mi venis ĉiukaze demandi kiom mi povis klarigi ekzemple mian vortaretan metodon - kaj mi ekpensis kompreneble tuton ĉi tion en esperanto.

And then the Esperantean conference about cheap learning methods spoiled my sleep:. in the night when I should have slept I came to think about the risk that the colourful and boisterous proponents of the natural method would dominate the conference even though sitting at home with a text, a dictionary, some paper and two pens is cheaper than anything a teacher can do. Given that my level in Esperanto probably isn't good enough for a lecture there is little I can do about this, but I nevertheless began to think through how I would explain my word list method in Esperanto. And it turned out to be easier than I thought, but it kept me awake for quite some time.


Edited by Iversen on 23 March 2012 at 4:19pm

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tarvos
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 Message 2866 of 3959
23 March 2012 at 1:31pm | IP Logged 
Thank you for the diligent response to my earlier question, Iversen. I do have another question for you, if you don't mind answering it it would be a great pleasure (and I hope this is legible Russian, which is my focus language at the moment):

Если можно задать вопрос по-русски: мне кажется, что ваш метод для изучении инастранцего языка очень интересно и немножко сложно. Сколько времени вы изучаете в средний день? Также (потому что я голландец), как вы изучали голландский язык? думаю что ваше методи очень расно мне.

Edited by tarvos on 23 March 2012 at 2:07pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2867 of 3959
23 March 2012 at 2:05pm | IP Logged 
У меня есть много языков чтобы поддерживать, и я не хочу посетить людей или идти пабах, так что большинство ночей я могу учиться по крайней мере несколько часов, - часто больше (смотряя телевизора). У меня тоже работа, где я могу потратить пять или десять минут время от времени в Интернете, и никто не жалуется.

Я не думаю, что мои методы для изучения письменности языки особенно громоздки. Проблема - как интегрировать разговорного языка. Я слушаю и говорить редко на моем языке, кроме когда я путешествую. На разговорный язык я должен на самом деле тратить гораздо больше времени...

Edited by Iversen on 23 March 2012 at 4:21pm

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tarvos
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 Message 2868 of 3959
23 March 2012 at 2:10pm | IP Logged 
Спасибо за быстрый ответ.
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Марк
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 Message 2869 of 3959
23 March 2012 at 3:11pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Thank you for the diligent response to my earlier question, Iversen. I do
have another question for you, if you don't mind answering it it would be a great
pleasure (and I hope this is legible Russian, which is my focus language at the moment):

Если можно задать вопрос по-русски: мне кажется, что ваш метод для изучении инастранцего
языка очень интересно и немножко сложно. Сколько времени вы изучаете в средний день?
Также (потому что я голландец), как вы изучали голландский язык? думаю что ваше методи
очень расно мне.

Мне кажется, что ваш метод изучения иностранных языков очень интересный и (но, хотя)
немножко сложный. Сколько времени в среднем вы тратите на язык? Как вы изучали (учили)
голландский язык? Думаю, что ваши методы очень отличаются от моих.
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Serpent
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 Message 2870 of 3959
23 March 2012 at 6:50pm | IP Logged 
Учитывая, что в профайле указана basic fluency - скорее все-таки "как вы выучили голландский?"

=)
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Iversen
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 Message 2871 of 3959
23 March 2012 at 7:58pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Также (потому что я голландец), как вы изучали голландский язык?


DU: Oh, ik vergat het Nederlands! Ik ben veel in de Benelux-landen gereisd vanaf 1972, en ik ben met het duits nog langer vertrouwd, zodat ik met de tijd enige vaardigheid in het lezen heb ontwikkeld. Het was veel moeilijker om het te begrijpen als een gesproken taal, en de eerste keer dat ik ontdekte dat ik eigenlijk het spul kon verstaan dit kwam zo plotseling dat ik de hele situatie heb beschreven in een draad over epifanie. Maar ik heb waarschijnlijk nog steeds een vreselijke uitspraak.


Edited by Iversen on 23 March 2012 at 8:09pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2872 of 3959
24 March 2012 at 8:02pm | IP Logged 
Today is Saturday and I have actually managed to do a fair amount of studying. First I did Indonesian wordlists, and then I turned to Romanian for a minor project of mine.

RO: În limba română, multe verbe au un infix -ez sau -esc. Am un altfel excelent dicţionar de la Editora Teora şi apoi am un vechi dicţionar român-român de dinainte de reforma post-Ceaucescu de ortografie. Aceşti infixi TREBUIE să fie folosiţi, dar din motive necunoscute nu-i au a mea Teora. De mult timp am început transferându-le din dicţionarul Academiei a ceea de Teora. Acest proiect a stagnat, dar astazi am cel puţin pus puncte colorate pentru infix - nu infix în secţiunile şi F, G H.

In Romanian many verbs have infixes: -ez if they are of the -a conjugation (to work, I, he works: a lucra, eu lucrez, el lucreaza)and -esc if they are of the -i conjugation (to economize: a economisi, eu economisesc, el economiseasca). A have an otherwise excellent dictionary from Teora without this essential piece of information and an old monolingual dictionary from the Ceaucescu perio with them, so long ago a began to put colored dots in the Teora to mark whether there should be infix or not. This project stagnated, but today I managed to do the letters F to H.

Afterwards I ate a duck while watching Desde Galicia in TVE - mostly in Spanish, but with one interview in Galician with subtitles. And from there I went on to watch a program about dinosaurs in English.

LAT: Canalis televisoria 'Scientia' enim emissionem praebuit de modis movendi animalium extinctiis. Primas partes suscepit Archeosaurus pseudochianus nomine "Poposaurus" - id est, non dinosaurus fuit, sed vero cognatus triassicus crocodilorum. Relatores statuum corporis motusque suus per computralium scrutaverunt, et programmationem "Gaitsym" habebant quae ex ossibus calcularent quomodo bestia haec in modo maximae economiae cuureret et ambularet. Profecto primum predictiones pro animalibus hodiernibus fecerunt et postea evaluerunt ut scire an credibile esset computatio, et consensus inter predictiones et naturam constabat sicut computralis hoc experimentum bene transiit. E quid de Poposauro dicendum est? Ninc scimus Popo non saltare, non repens currere (quattuor membra utens) sed vere bipede se movere per colles campique. Postea de senectudine regi Haddingi et juventudine regi Frodoni filii ei in Gesta Danorum Saxoni legi.

The program about paleontology was focussed on modern methods to prove how extinct animals moved. We saw a lot of dino tracks, which were photographed in exquisit detail and three dimensions with a contraption called Lidar. However the main character in the program was an Archosaur called Podosaurus - more something like a longlegged crocodile than a dinosaur, and with a pelvic region which didn't look like that of any known dinosaur. So they presenters got a computerprogram called Gaitsym to analyse the bones and find out which gait would be the much energy efficient - and it turned out not to be jumping like a roo, not walking on all four like a croc but running around on two legs like a bird and the early dinosaurs (until some of them became so big and fat that they had to use all their legs for stomping around). Afterwards I read in my bilingual edition of Gesta danorum by Saxo about the last years of king Hadding and the first years of the reign of king Frodo.


Edited by Iversen on 24 March 2012 at 8:08pm



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