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ARABIC usratih = his family but ismuhu | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| zorglub Pentaglot Senior Member France Joined 7056 days ago 441 posts - 504 votes  1 sounds Speaks: French*, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (Written), Turkish, Mandarin | Message 1 of 7 14 March 2009 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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Linguaphone pulls on my nerves.
Ana fi _ ntiZaar Sadiiqii wa-'usratih: I am waiting for my friend and his family. Linguaphone says for usratih: "ending h attached to express his or its, similarly Sadiiquh, his friend , zawjatuh his wife. Ismuhu his name. This does not make sense to me: So explained I'd expect "usratuh" for his family. My guess is that usratih stands for the indirect case, whereas those ending in -uh are for the direct case. Assimil (which I abandonned again for it's bad sound track and complicated arabic)) explained : "fi baytihi" for "in his house "(indirect case were "hi" replaces "hu" for the masculine, but fi bayti-ha = in her house and fi bayti = in my house. Can someone explain these endings to me ? Both Assimil and Linguaphone claim to teach MSA, but they are two different MSAs .... GRRRRR ! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5888 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 2 of 7 14 March 2009 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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I konw exactly how you feel. I started learning Arabic using Linguaphone a couple of years ago and became frustrated at the lack of proper explanations for these endings and stopped using it. These endings are actually the case endings. Nominative definite ends in -u, hence usratuh and ismuhu. However in the sentence 'Ana fi _ ntiZaar Sadiiqii wa-'usratih' this is actually in the genitive case -i, which is used after prepositions, therefore the -h (his) is tacked onto usrati. But wait till someone else confirms this as I may be mistaken.
At the moment I am using Mastering Arabic and a German language Arabic course where these case endings are left out. But I would like to use Linguaphone again in the future when I have a better understanding of the basic grammar. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| zorglub Pentaglot Senior Member France Joined 7056 days ago 441 posts - 504 votes 1 sounds Speaks: French*, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (Written), Turkish, Mandarin | Message 3 of 7 14 March 2009 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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As frustrating as it may be, I continue with linguaphone because the soundtrack is so nice.
Assimil , which I tried to use after initial disgust because of the awful sound track does seem to explain grammar just fine except that this seems not to be contemporary Modern Standard Arabic, it sounds like an ancien complicated Arabic. You're right with the genitive explanation , that's what they say in Assimil except that they complicate it in "usratihi" instead of usratihu, the genitive i ending taking precedence on the 3d person ending for masculine words. My understanding is : Usrah family Usratuhu his family (direct case, I suppose) Usratuha her family Usrati my family. Usratih his family (genitive /indirect case) And in Pimsleur's Syrian Arabic this is simply: usratu his family (direct and genitive/indirect. I'll look up wether harrap's or "for dummies" exains this simply, if I don't find it in the web. and no I'm not going to learn the writing. Thanks for your input Z
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| Vimana_Suttee Bilingual Diglot Newbie Algeria Joined 5790 days ago 2 posts - 2 votes Speaks: Arabic (Written)*, Arabic (classical)* Studies: French, English | Message 4 of 7 14 March 2009 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello all,
As a native arabic speaker I guess I can help.. There is a big difference between Usratuhu (or usratuh), Usratihi (or usratih), Usratahu (or usratah).. It seems confusing in the beginning :-p but I think you should learn Tachkil (la vacalisation) I don't know if you heard about, but in arabic we have "Fatha", "dom", "kasra" which indicate us how to pronouce the ending of the word. The word must carry one of them, it depends on its position in the sentence: Subject, 'Khabar, mudhaf*, maatuf*.. Dom Object, adjective, mudhaf*, maatuf*.. Fatha Mudhaf ilayhi, majrur, ... kasra -Now how can we know them? Dom: Usrat(u)hu. Fatha: Usrat(a)hu. Kasra: Usrat(i)hi. In this example, Usratahu is compound of Usrah (Family) this is the one that carries the tachkil, and hu=his.. Usratuhu: his family! Where is the "t" when saying usrah then usratuhu? Usrah is pronouced without tachkil the exact word is usratun (also it depends on its position in the sentence) To avoid the tachkil we ignore the last "ta marbuta ة".. "Ana fi _ ntiZaar Sadiiqii wa-'usratih" Here "fi means literally "In" & fi is one of huruf al-Jarr so the noun after fi we call it 'issm majrur means it should carry the kasra (because of fi) So we say Usrat(i)h or usrat(i)hi. If it's in position to carry Fatha, we would say Usratuhu (subject or khabar..). -There is no direct & indirect case, but there is something called in arabic I3rab, I didn't get how you all are learning arabic without rules? :-p Masculine singular: with dom: usratuhu fatha: usratahu kasra: usratihi same "his family" in English! singular feminine: with dom: usratuha fatha: usrataha kasra: usratiha (Her family) Masculine plural: with dom: usratuhum or usratohom fatha: usratahum or usratahom kasra: usratihim (their family) Feminine plural: with dom: usratuhuna or usratuhunna.. Whatever :-p fatha: usratahunna kasra: usratihina or usratihinna (their family) ____________________ Still many pronouns, sorry but I think every one should take a look at grammar "I3Rab" & learn tachkil it's so important, not just to read but to understand! Impossible sometimes to know the meaning of the word without tachkil, same letters, different word "Arabic is so large"! Sorry for my poor widowed English, I hope it could help you.. Good luck! Edited by Vimana_Suttee on 14 March 2009 at 11:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| zorglub Pentaglot Senior Member France Joined 7056 days ago 441 posts - 504 votes 1 sounds Speaks: French*, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (Written), Turkish, Mandarin | Message 5 of 7 15 March 2009 at 12:14am | IP Logged | ||
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Sakha mon ami, laken asif, laa afam. bas Shookran jezilaan. Ana laa timidh shattir.
And as I learn mainly listening to recordings (while running, shopping etc...) I decided I would not learn the writing. Hence, or for other reasons linked to my embryonic learning, I don't understand your explaination, but I'm grateful for the effort.
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| Vimana_Suttee Bilingual Diglot Newbie Algeria Joined 5790 days ago 2 posts - 2 votes Speaks: Arabic (Written)*, Arabic (classical)* Studies: French, English | Message 6 of 7 15 March 2009 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ok!! I'm sorry Zorglub :-p I didn't read your second post: "and no I'm not going to
learn the writing.".. But I'm still with learning I3rab :-) Anyway, in this case I've an other solution for you.. You have to understand the sentence well, then you can guess how the words end.. Again I'm going to say: If the word's position is subject then it should end with "uh, object? with "ah, verb? if it's in the past then it ends with a, present; u, future same u.. They are the simplest rules that you can keep in your mind to know the words' ending (Understanding words' positions).. I think it won't help you either so sorry for being useless :-( Anyway, when you'll reach a higher level in arabic, you'll start to unerstand from the rythm' of the sentence that something is not correct, so don't worry :-) Salam Chahrazed, 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Talib Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6717 days ago 171 posts - 205 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (classical) Studies: Arabic (Egyptian) | Message 7 of 7 17 April 2009 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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Basically the words usratuhu 'his family' can be pronounced usratuhu, usratahu, or usratihi depending on the context. The third to last letter changes depending on whether the noun is the subject, object, it is following a preposition, or for another syntatic position.
In the sentence "Ana fi _ ntiZaar Sadiiqii wa-'usratih" the reason that usratihi takes an i for the third to last letter is that the word is in the genitive case (it is majrur). The explaination as to why it is in the genitive case as oppossed to the nominative or accusative case would be a lengthy disscussion in itself. The attached pronoun hu 'his' can be pronounced two ways. It is either hu or hi. It is hu whenever it comes after u or a, and it is hi whenever it comes after i. That is why it is pronounced usratihi and not usratihu. Usratihu is never valid. As for the attached pronoun ha 'her' it is pronouced ha regardless of the vowel coming before it. Therefore it would be valid to say usratuha, usrataha, or usratiha depending on the syntatic position of the word. For more details the grammar by Haywood is very good. Talib Edited by Talib on 17 April 2009 at 3:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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