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How many words do I have to learn ? | ||
Tags: Vocabulary learning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| Recht Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5579 days ago 241 posts - 270 votes  Speaks: English*, GermanB1 | Message 49 of 70 18 April 2009 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
Iversen, what distinctions do you make between high-level foreign fluency and native fluency? You have an active, and no doubt passive vocabulary that exceeds the average native English speaker's, and I've found perhaps two or three spelling errors in all of your writing, which can be attributed to hastiness and not a lack of knowledge. Do you not consider yourself at a native level in English? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ghost Newbie Canada mcgill.ca Joined 5477 days ago 1 posts - 1 votes Speaks: English* | Message 50 of 70 18 April 2009 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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This is interesting, please continue
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| sprachefin Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5524 days ago 300 posts - 317 votes Speaks: German*, English, Spanish Studies: French, Turkish, Mandarin, Bulgarian, Persian, Dutch | Message 51 of 70 18 April 2009 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
I am not trying to say that just because you are going to the country requires native fluency. Going to a country for a learning experience for a few years is a fantastic idea, and I strongly encourage any person who has not had the best experience with traditional learning methods to do such a thing. However, people who plan to live in the country of their target language, should do as much as possible to be prepared. For example, how would you treat someone with limited [x language of your country] if they said they were a student staying for a couple of years versus if they said they had just moved there. Frankly, I am going to France in a couple of months to improve my French. Of course I would only be staying there for a few weeks. However, if I were living there, I would definitely make more of an effort to learn more French. This is not the case and again I apologize for my comments that were perceived as incorrect and I hope that, again, there are no hard feelings. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6456 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 52 of 70 18 April 2009 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Of course I won't argue with you there, sprachefin, learning as much as you can when you are going somewhere is rather obviously a good idea! However, that wasn't really the point I was arguing with to begin with, it was the "if you don't go for native fluency then don't bother" thing.
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 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6481 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 53 of 70 18 April 2009 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's precisely one of the differences: unlike native Anglophones who live in an Anglophone country, I mostly deal with formal language. My English is probably hypercorrect, loaded with oldfashioned - but hopefully correct - phrases, and I pick those expressions from all over the world instead of being loyal to one dialect and sociolect. Besides I probably have an accent that is coloured by not only all the kinds of English I hear, but also by my other languages - and I don't think that is limited to my native Danish. Finally I have some atypical opinions, such as resenting the English use of distorted foreign placenames (Milan for Milano, Venice for Venezia and so forth), and this will also color my language. But this raises a point: should an advanced learner of a language accept this, because it basically means that I have dropped the notion of native fluency as my goal. Spies and actors and singers may wish to learn to imitate 'genuine' Anglophones perfectly, but I have other priorities, such as learning even more scientific terms. EDIT: I have just corrected two spelling errors, socialect and langues, - and the last one is interesting as I may have overlooked the missing letters because the word is correct in French. If you want to sound and write like the average Anglophone then errors like this one will immediately unmask you as an imposter. Edited by Iversen on 19 April 2009 at 6:57am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Recht Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5579 days ago 241 posts - 270 votes Speaks: English*, GermanB1 | Message 54 of 70 18 April 2009 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
I expected this would likely be one of the distinctions. If I spoke to my grandfather in the language I use with my friends, he would likely not know what we were talking about. In that sense, he is not fluent in my English slang, at least not actively. On the English language as a whole, however, of course he is. There are very many Americans who use "old fashioned" and formal language(yours does not strike me as such, merely precisely articulate), for example Prof. Arguelles, and this is really simply an indication of a preference in speech mannerisms. There is an unfortunately large number of Americans who would comprehend, for lack of education, your written word. So, I think for all purposes you have "native" level fluency in vocabulary, structure etc, but probably not as you mentioned in the field of pronunciation. I'm sure you could learn to speak with a Texas or New York accent without much trouble though! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| sprachefin Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5524 days ago 300 posts - 317 votes Speaks: German*, English, Spanish Studies: French, Turkish, Mandarin, Bulgarian, Persian, Dutch | Message 55 of 70 18 April 2009 at 11:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well I apologize for seeming quite abrupt when saying that and I didn't mean it in that way even if it may have come across. Sure if you are going to learn only one language, you should strive for fluency of a native speaker in that language. But, many people on this forum are polyglots that have basic fluency in many languages. It would probably be personal preference if one wanted to be perfectly fluent in all of their languages. That is my preference, but maybe someone wants to tour the world. Basic fluency in many languages would be appropriate, and simpler to do. If someone just wants to be a polyglot, then basic fluency is an ideal goal. I apologize for degrading those who are satisfied with basic fluency. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6481 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 56 of 70 19 April 2009 at 7:16am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm not quite happy about that formulation, "those are satisfied with basic fluency". Ideally I would like to have either native fluency or something close to that in every one of my languages. But I recognize that such a lofty ambition would make it impossible for me to learn and maintain a wide array of languages.
Nevertheless, from the moment you have attained basic fluency it is mostly a question of exposure and attentiveness to move steadily upwards, and with time, more travelling and the development in the electronic media this process ought to be almost automatical. Basic fluency is for me the explicite and immediate goal because it is both feasible and sufficient to satisfy my needs. Advanced fluency will come by itself if I really need a certain language. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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