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Ukrainian vs Russian

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Poll Question: Is Ukrainian a dialect of Russian
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44 messages over 6 pages: 1 2 35 6  Next >>
canada38
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Senior Member
Canada
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304 posts - 417 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish, French
Studies: Portuguese, Japanese

 
 Message 25 of 44
29 April 2010 at 2:36pm | IP Logged 
paparaciii wrote:
Just very quick question.
Can these two be considered dialects of the same language?

I'm having quite heated discussion with one guy on this subject and he is trying to
convince me that Ukrainian isn't separate language, that it is just a dialect of
Russian.

Personally I couldn't disagree more.


This might sound trivial, but I think it is a subtle fact worthy of consideration.

Here we all should know that a dialect is an equally valid variant of a language, and I
would hope that none of us have the popular opinion that a dialect is a substandard
version of a more prestigious language. Of course one dialect may be more prestigious
economically, but that does not imply that it is 'more correct' in purely linguistic
terms. Excluding specific situations, but rather in the overall picture, Russian is
clearly more useful than Ukrainian, and by the same reasoning, American English is of
greater use than Canadian or Australian English. For example, an ESL student planning
to study in a yet to be determined English speaking country, would be wise to learn
American spellings over Canadian variants. Likewise, if one was going to be in Eastern
Europe in an undetermined location, and could only learn one language, Russian would
the safer bet over Ukrainian.

My point is this: dialects work in both directions, regardless of the colloquial usage
of the term. If someone wishes to classify Ukrainian as a dialect of Russian, he should
also be prepared to classify Russian as a dialect of Ukrainian, since a dialect is a
variant of the same language, and not a term denoting a variant with substandard
status.

Although I haven't studied either, from what I've read they appear to me to be indeed separate languages.

Edited by canada38 on 29 April 2010 at 2:39pm

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Delodephius
Bilingual Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
Joined 3760 days ago

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 Message 26 of 44
29 April 2010 at 3:30pm | IP Logged 
1qaz2wsx wrote:
Gusutafu wrote:
1qaz2wsx wrote:
Delodephius wrote:
In all the Slavic languages the language is called Macedonian.

In russian,bulgarian,serbian and all the other slavic languages, this language is called macedonian???It's called makedonski in all slavic languages and obviously you do not make any sense at all.


Well, do you call English "English" in French just because the English themselves call it that? Of course not, you say "anglais", if you say "parlez-vous English" people will think you're mad.

Still,that does not mean this would be an insult to the English language and its people.

Not with English because there aren't certain chauvinistic implications present there. When a Greek refuses in English to call the language Macedonian we all know this is because of chauvinistic reasons and no respect for the Macedonians' self designation.
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1qaz2wsx
Diglot
Groupie
Greece
Joined 3730 days ago

98 posts - 124 votes 
Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1
Studies: Russian, Albanian

 
 Message 27 of 44
29 April 2010 at 3:47pm | IP Logged 
Ayazid wrote:
Could somebody be so kind as to explain to me what has the name of Macedonian to do with the topic of this thread (Ukrainian vs Russian)??

Language or dialect can be a political question,not a linguistic one.Someone might claim that Ukrainian is a separate language from Russian,even though Ukrainian is linguistically very close to Russian just because of politics.The name 'Macedonian' is often used just to show that the language is a direct descendant of ancient Macedonian with which it has nothing to do.Ancient Macedonian (an unknown language) has nothing to do with modern Macedonian,which is a slavic language,while Bulgarian and modern day Macedonian could be considered dialects of one and the same language.Their mutual intelligibity is very high.But because of politics modern Macedonian is considered a separate language.

The same goes for Ukrainian and Russian.Linguistically they are very close and could be considered dialects or variants of the same language.But some people consider them separate languages just because of politics.And this list is very long:Serbian and Croatian(almost identical but they are considered different languages),Romanian an Moldovan and so on...


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1qaz2wsx
Diglot
Groupie
Greece
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 Message 28 of 44
29 April 2010 at 3:55pm | IP Logged 
Delodephius wrote:
1qaz2wsx wrote:
Gusutafu wrote:
1qaz2wsx wrote:
Delodephius wrote:
In all the Slavic languages the language is called Macedonian.

In russian,bulgarian,serbian and all the other slavic languages, this language is called macedonian???It's called makedonski in all slavic languages and obviously you do not make any sense at all.


Well, do you call English "English" in French just because the English themselves call it that? Of course not, you say "anglais", if you say "parlez-vous English" people will think you're mad.

Still,that does not mean this would be an insult to the English language and its people.

Not with English because there aren't certain chauvinistic implications present there. When a Greek refuses in English to call the language Macedonian we all know this is because of chauvinistic reasons and no respect for the Macedonians' self designation.

What about the part of the greek people who call themselves Macedonian in a regional sense?Should they be denied of their self designation just because a neighbouring country uses the same name?

Edited by 1qaz2wsx on 29 April 2010 at 5:34pm

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Delodephius
Bilingual Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
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342 posts - 501 votes 
Speaks: Slovak*, Serbo-Croatian*, EnglishC1, Czech
Studies: Russian, Japanese

 
 Message 29 of 44
29 April 2010 at 4:34pm | IP Logged 
They are Macedonians in a regional sense, but they are first and foremost Greeks. Ethnic Macedonians are simply Macedonians and nothing else. They have no other entity to identify with, unlike the Macedonian Greeks which have Greece and other Greeks to identify with. The Macedonians cannot identify for example with an illusionary identity like Slavs. They identify ONLY with Macedonia and nothing else, thus they are the ethnic Macedonians and their language Macedonian. The language of the Greeks in Macedonia is a dialect of Greek and not of a language called Macedonian. Therefore the Greeks in Macedonia can call their language Macedonian as long as it is understood they are speaking of a dialect of the language called Greek, and they can call themselves Macedonians as long as it is understood they mean in the regional sense and as long it is understood they are Greeks.
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1qaz2wsx
Diglot
Groupie
Greece
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 Message 30 of 44
29 April 2010 at 5:33pm | IP Logged 
Delodephius wrote:
They are Macedonians in a regional sense, but they are first and foremost Greeks. Ethnic Macedonians are simply Macedonians and nothing else. They have no other entity to identify with, unlike the Macedonian Greeks which have Greece and other Greeks to identify with. The Macedonians cannot identify for example with an illusionary identity like Slavs. They identify ONLY with Macedonia and nothing else, thus they are the ethnic Macedonians and their language Macedonian. The language of the Greeks in Macedonia is a dialect of Greek and not of a language called Macedonian. Therefore the Greeks in Macedonia can call their language Macedonian as long as it is understood they are speaking of a dialect of the language called Greek, and they can call themselves Macedonians as long as it is understood they mean in the regional sense and as long it is understood they are Greeks.


Illusionary slav identity or not,their language is slavic and could be considered a dialect of Bulgarian.Have you ever heard of a macedonian salad?A lot of people use the term 'macedonian' to designate themselves or their language,in the regional or the ethnic sense.The Greeks consider the ancient Macedonians one of their ancestors and there is a variant of the modern greek language called macedonian.The people of 'the repuplic of Macedonia' consider the ancient Macedonians their ancestors.The Aromanians who live in the republic of Macedonia consider themselves descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians,too.The Romanians consider the aromanians are southern romanians and the colloquial term for calling them is 'machedoni' or macedo-romanians in English.What this newly formed state of the 'republic of Macedonia' wants is to appropriate the term 'macedonian' for its self.Thus anything macedonian,whether ancient,modern,regional or ethnic must be connected to this recently emerged nation of the so called 'Macedonians'.A new nation to stand on its feet needs,of course,glorious history and heroic ancestors.The problem here is that this nation claims this term, 'macedonian' for its self only, denying all others of the use of this term.

Bottom line,the question 'language or dialect' is political and the use of the name 'Macedonian' for this language and country is very political.

Edited by 1qaz2wsx on 29 April 2010 at 5:37pm

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Fazla
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Italy
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 Message 31 of 44
29 April 2010 at 8:44pm | IP Logged 
I don't understand how can it be political if the whole Macedonian nation (thus, I'm not referring to the ones that use that name in a regional sense) uses that term. What you said would make sense if there was a party that pushed for that name, while the people was claiming that they speak a dialect of Bulgarian but no, every single Macedonian says he speaks Macedonian so it's not political at all.
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RedKing'sDream
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Groupie
United States
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53 posts - 68 votes 
Speaks: English*, Russian
Studies: Ukrainian

 
 Message 32 of 44
29 April 2010 at 10:59pm | IP Logged 
It's not a political distinction.

Thousands of words are different.

One of thousands of examples:

(Russ) "Мы увидемся на следующей неделе." vs. (Ukr)"Ми побачимося наступного тиждня."
(We'll see each other next week.)

Granted, there are many things that are extremely simple. But the differences, especially in the lexicon at the more formal level are very deep.




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