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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5614 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 1 of 8 21 October 2009 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Do nouns which come after compound numbers ending in dva, tri, ctyri take the genitive plural or the nom plural. For example does one say Je mi dvacet dva roky or dvacet dva let?
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| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5451 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 2 of 8 21 October 2009 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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Great question - and in fact many Czechs don't even know the answer. The "official" answer is that you must use the nominative plural when the low order number is between two and four. Despite this, many people use the genitive plural anyway.
One relatively common way around this is to use compound versions of the numbers instead, such as dvaadvacet so that the compound ends in a higher order number (in this case 20) and so always takes the genitive plural. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5614 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 3 of 8 21 October 2009 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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I did think it was the nom plural but was beginning to have doubts and thought that maybe my Russian was interfering. I've spent ages trying to find the answer in my many Czech grammar books without success. So it is more common to say Je mi dvacet dva let than je mi dvacet dva roky for ezample?
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| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5451 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 4 of 8 21 October 2009 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | ||
There are two "legal" ways to say it: Jsou mi dvacet dva roky - this is correct but is very bookish, and you would almost never hear it in real life and Je mi dvaadvacet let - this is by far the most common "real life" construct you will hear (and read) However, many people do say: Je mi dvacet dva let - which is grammatically incorrect, however this "slang" is so frequent in practice that people have got used to it and won't flinch if you say it 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 magister Pro Member United States Joined 6385 days ago 346 posts - 421 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Turkish, Irish Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 8 21 October 2009 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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Je mi dvacet dva let, definitely. It may not be the textbook way to say it, but that doesn't matter. It's the way natives express it.
Edit: Looks like Splog posted while I was typing. Oh well, so you hear it twice. Edited by magister on 21 October 2009 at 9:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5614 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 6 of 8 22 October 2009 at 12:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for your answers both of you.
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| kyknos Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5278 days ago 103 posts - 140 votes Speaks: Slovak, Czech*, English Studies: German, Spanish | Message 7 of 8 08 November 2009 at 10:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well. Both "dvacet dva roky" and "dvacet dva let" is correct. The latter is more natural in contemporary usage. "Dvacet dva roky" used to be mandatory, but those times are over, as officially recognized by Czech Language Institute of the Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic:
Ve spojení základních číslovek od dvaceti výše, které jsou zakončeny na jeden, dva, tři, čtyři, se do 70. let minulého století ve spisovné češtině vyžadovaly tvary počítaného předmětu a shoda přísudku podle posledního členu: podle jeden člověk byl zraněn, dva/tři/ čtyři lidé byli zraněni mělo být i dvě stě jeden člověk byl zraněn, dvě stě dva/tři/čtyři lidé byli zraněni. Spojení dvě stě jedna/tři/čtyři lidí bylo zraněno,tj. spojení s počítaným předmětem v 2. pádě, bylo hodnoceno jako chybné. Mnozí jazykovědci však poukazovali na nepřirozenost spojení typu sto (dvě stě, tři sta, …) jeden člověk, a to zejména ve větách obsahujících výrazy celý a všechen, např. závod dokončil všechen sto jeden běžec, a tím i na neudržitelnost tehdejší kodifikace. Druhý pád se nejdříve prosadil u číslovkových výrazů zakončených na jeden, postupně pronikl i k výrazům s číslovkami dva, tři, čtyři. I dnes čteme a slýcháme původní tvary, zejména ve sportovních reportážích a zpravodajstvích: závodník skočil sto dvacet jeden metr a za tento skok získal sto třicet čtyři body. Běžnější i přirozenější jsou však už tvary závodník skočil sto dvacet jedna metrů a za tento skok získal sto třicet čtyři bodů. (This is the answer for the same question from their online site, saying that the old nominative plural is not mandatory since 1970's and is now considered 'old-school'.) I have personally changed computer code in GNU gettext to reflect this change in all software using gettext libraries (most of the free software world) several years ago. PS: The site is very useful for advanced questions. FAQ are online, you can ask your own questions via the e-mail address in the bottom. http://www.ujc.cas.cz/poradna/porfaq.htm Edited by kyknos on 08 November 2009 at 11:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kyknos Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5278 days ago 103 posts - 140 votes Speaks: Slovak, Czech*, English Studies: German, Spanish | Message 8 of 8 08 November 2009 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | ||
And by the way, I just noticed... "Je mi dvacet dva roky" is wrong anyway! It should be "Jsou mi dvacet dva roky" or "Je mi dvacet dva let". If the number of years in 22 indeed, any contemporary native speaker would use the genitive form ("Je mi dvacet dva let"). However, I wouldn't be surprised to hear "Jsou mi sedmdesát dva roky" :). Edited by kyknos on 08 November 2009 at 11:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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