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English in Scandinavia and Netherlands | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| ChristopherB Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 6317 days ago 851 posts - 1074 votes  2 sounds Speaks: English*, German, French | Message 1 of 22 11 December 2009 at 1:15pm | IP Logged |
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I was sure I made a thread on this a while ago. Basically, I'm really astonished at the level that kids as young as 13 reach in English in Scandinavia and the Netherlands. I know they watch a lot of television undubbed with subtitles in their native language, and I have heard it's not uncommon to hear children chatting among themselves in English. This is kind of saddening to me as it really reduces the practical usefulness of learning those languages so much. I love them a lot, and am learning them anyway, but the thought that so many of them can express themselves in English that is nearly as good as their Dutch, Swedish, Icelandic etc., is a little disheartening. Can anyone who lives there confirm that English really is so strong in these countries? Is it at all unusual to find people in their 20's unable to hold a decent conversation in English?
By the way, I ran out of space for 'the' in the title. Edited by ChristopherB on 11 December 2009 at 1:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Vinbelgium Bilingual Tetraglot Groupie Belgium Joined 5825 days ago 61 posts - 73 votes Speaks: Dutch*, Flemish*, English, French Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 2 of 22 11 December 2009 at 1:31pm | IP Logged |
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In Flanders we all watch English tv programs with subtitles. Our English is good. English is really strong in Flanders and the Netherlands. And yes, it is very unusual and uncommon to find people in their 20's unable to hold a decent conversation in English. Almost all young people know at least the basics of the English language.
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 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 3 of 22 11 December 2009 at 1:46pm | IP Logged |
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The level of English (and foreign languages) is probably overestimated.
The knowledge of English is generally good, and basically everyone under 40 (50?) has studied it since at least third grade. Swedes probably speak better English than those who never hear the language in movies and on TV (there we have a real advantage). Decent conversations - yes. Swedish accent - oh yes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5522 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 4 of 22 11 December 2009 at 1:56pm | IP Logged |
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The fact that we speak reasonable English will not make learning Swedish less useful, unless the purpose was to come here and have stilted conversations about the weather. The real problem is that it will be very hard for you to convince us to speak Swedish with you, rather than English. Either you'll have to become pretty good before you even come here, or you'll have to pull the anti-banditry trick and tell people you're South African and only speak Afrikaans (and perhaps Zulu).
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| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5839 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 5 of 22 11 December 2009 at 3:50pm | IP Logged |
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The kids will definitely not be "chatting between themselves" in English.
At least not yet.. What you do hear though is English (read American) swearwords and slang expressions picked up from Tv and videogames. But there is a big difference between being able to say "Sh1t!", "you b1tch" or "That s*cks!" in a phony American accent, to actually being able to express yourself well in spoken and written English. Using such expressions in a foreign language (i.e. English) takes the edge off the expression and most of the time the speaker is not aware how incredibly rude, silly and vulgar he or she (yes, girls too...) would sound to a native English speaker – for example a visiting Brit. Frankly this trend is both pathetic and worrying. After reading the above, now perhaps a few of you native English speakers have a little more understanding why we are worried about the downsides of English as lingua franca? What would you think if your younger siblings or your kids were so influenced by the culture of another country that they started using vulgar, foul... French, Spanish or German in every other sentence, but yet were unable to construct a grammatically correct sentence in that language? Those kids who are academically minded and make an effort will have some level of decent fluency by the time they finish school. But that does NOT mean they are on par with a native speaker and there is still plenty of room for misunderstandings, mixups and other problems. It is NOT an equal situation and the person is NOT able to express his opinions and thoughts as effectively and eloquently as a native speaker with the same level of education. Remember that the Scandis and Dutch people that you meet here (I am one of them) are exceptions, not the norm. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5910 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 6 of 22 11 December 2009 at 5:28pm | IP Logged |
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People can mostly get by, some better than others, but there are still plenty of people who are not comfortable speaking English. They will if they have to, but you're not going to be holding fluid conversations with them on a high level. Some people will ask for a translation of relatively straightforward things. I think the people who find English difficult tend to avoid practicing it, so they don't get any better.
And yes, you might occasionally hear kids jokingly speaking English to each other, to practice/show off/make fun of something. It depends on the kids though, and I don't know how widespread it is, but I've definitely heard it. You will definitely run into the problem that people will try to switch back to English if they're comfortable with that. Some people just prefer holding a conversation in English over listening to your broken Norwegian (I think the situation is more or less the same in other Scandinavian countries). So like somebody else said, it would be wise to get to a high level before you try to approach people if you want them to stick to their own language for you. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Sprachjunge Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 7166 days ago 368 posts - 548 votes Speaks: English*, GermanC2 Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 7 of 22 11 December 2009 at 5:32pm | IP Logged |
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I'm in college in the U.S., and up until this year, a lot of my friends were Swedish (they graduated :( ). Although they spoke flawless English, I was constantly surprised by how many opportunities I would have had to speak in Swedish if I had learned the language. To clarify, at the beginning, I'm sure they would only humor my stilted "how do you dos" for a while before switching back to English when addressing me, but I would have had plenty of opportunities for passive listening and even actual participation--once my Swedish was good enough. And I suppose that's only fair.
I think it goes back to a point someone on here made: Unless they are genuinely bilingual, people are quite happy to speak in their native language to express themselves fully, to be taken completely seriously, etc. In other words, Scandinavians still speak their own languages, thank you very much. But I think Gusutafu is right in that you won't get the shrieks of glee with the Spanish community if you manage to squeak out a "Como estas?" You will need decent Swedish, etc. before it will make any sense to switch over. Nonetheless, it's still worth it if you want to learn. People said the same thing about Germans speaking English so well (and many of them do), but guess what? There is still plenty of German speaking to be had! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6784 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 8 of 22 11 December 2009 at 5:55pm | IP Logged |
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ChristopherB, I think your description overstates it dramatically. I think it's true that we do English better in Scandinavia (and the Netherlands where I now live) than probably a lot of other countries, but it does not approach the point of actually speaking the language as well as the native language. And when I say it does not, I mean the vast majority of people. The fact that Sprachjunge met some Swedish people who spoke good English only means that those were Swedish people with a strong enough interest in English in order to live in the US, and thus they do not in any way represent the country as a whole.
Go to any city in Scandinavia or the Netherlands and I promise you you will not be under the illusion of being in an English speaking country (or a country where people are so fluent in English as a second language that you can't tell it's not their native language). Here in the Netherlands I've met Dutch people in college, who are attending an English language program, who could communicate in English yes, but not without a considerable amount of discomfort, and when they had to write something for a project it'd be so riddled with mistakes it's not funny. The average is somewhat above that, most people I've met (but then again these are university students in their 20s who have specifically opted to take a program in English) speak it well enough to be effective in an academic setting. Edited by numerodix on 11 December 2009 at 6:06pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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