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"Tu" vs "Usted" in Spanish Insults & Arguments | ||
Tags: Polite/Informal Forms | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 5947 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes  Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 1 of 13 23 December 2009 at 10:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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A while ago I came accross an Assimil Spanish lesson where a taxi driving was shouting insults at another driver. What surprised me was that the taxi driver was using Usted to address the other driver.
I'd always thought that since the main purpose was to insult then you would use Tu, rather than adding a respectful tone by using Usted. I'd be interested to know what native Spanish speakers think of this. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| XGargoyle Bilingual Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 5750 days ago 42 posts - 93 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*, EnglishB2 Studies: GermanA2, Japanese, Russian | Message 2 of 13 23 December 2009 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
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At least in Spain, during a heated discussion or argument, younger or uneducated people will always use the "Tú" when exchanging insults ("Eres un idiota!", "you're an idiot!" the personal pronoun is redundant in this case and sounds weird if used). Gentlemen and seniors could also use the "Tú" but is expected from them to use the formal way of "Usted" ("Usted es un idiota!"), the formality in this case is used as a way to express an insult but always keeping good manners, as Gentlemen are expected to do.
Being on topic, it sounds weird to me that a taxi driver (with all my due respects to that job) would use a formal mode instead of a colloquial way of insulting someone. It fits more the character if he used the informal mode rather than the formal one. However, please keep in mind that "Usted" is commonly used in Latin America, whereas in Spain, the form is out of use at a colloquial level, and only used on a formal one. That makes me believe the Assimil Spanish lesson may have been developed by a native speaker from Latin America rather than one based in Spain, hence the use of "Usted" instead of "Tú" during an argument. But I'd be glad if a native Latin American speaker could confirm this. Just a bit of trivia, the etymology of "Usted" comes from "Vuesa Merced" (literally "Your Highness"), which was contracted into "Vd." and read as "Usted" 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5379 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 3 of 13 23 December 2009 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm not a native speaker, but I've heard Usted used sarcastically like "high and mighty" almost.
I've also heard usted used to make an insult less insulting, because of the formal and informal address. If I were insulting someone and really meant it, I'd use the tú form. That's just my .02, If anyone wants to correct me feel free, I'm just going off of what people have told me. :) -Jordan 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kerateo Triglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 5440 days ago 112 posts - 180 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English, French Studies: Italian | Message 4 of 13 23 December 2009 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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"Encamine sus pasos hacia su progenitora... e incomodela"
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| Risch Groupie United States Joined 5383 days ago 49 posts - 71 votes Speaks: English* | Message 5 of 13 23 December 2009 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'd be curious to know what the rules are for "formal" situations are in Spain. I addressed all shopkeepers, hotel workers, and older people with Usted when I was there, and now I am wondering if I sounded odd. If you're familiar with France (sorry, it's the only other language/culture I know well), would you say that tú and usted correspond to tu and vous, or is it more informal than that?
That's interesting because when I've heard this explanation before I've heard that Usted is a contracted form of trong>Vuestra Merced. However, since the possessive pronoun here should belong to the singular, vos, and not vosotros, "Vuesa" makes more sense (assuming that wasn't a typo.) I've wondered how vos was used in the past in Spanish and also why the objective form of vos is "te" in Rioplatense. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Guido Super Polyglot Senior Member ArgentinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6322 days ago 286 posts - 582 votes Speaks: Spanish*, French, English, German, Italian, Portuguese, Norwegian, Catalan, Dutch, Swedish, Danish Studies: Russian, Indonesian, Romanian, Polish, Icelandic | Message 6 of 13 24 December 2009 at 3:20am | IP Logged | |||||
the plural of "vos" is "ustedes", not "vosotros" (maybe it was in the past, but not anymore). As for the "te", I've no idea. Have a nice day! Guido. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5775 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 7 of 13 24 December 2009 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, the anecdote about the taxi driver might be a bit unusual, but not that much. For example, if I got mixed in an argument with someone I would normally address as usted, I wouldn't change to tú just because I'm arguing. You can say for instance, 'usted lo que no tiene es vergüenza ninguna', which is something of an insult. Or 'salude a su padre de mi parte cuando lo conozca', very, very rude. More vulgar and offensive names would require the tú form though.
On the other hand, the opposite is more likely, as Spaniards are very fond of a kinda, formal language escalation when arguing. I know people who only show off their more educated register when they are very angry. If you follow Spanish web forums, blogs and so, you must have noticed that. Unlike in some Latin American countries, Spanish internet users address to each other as tú, that's the standard with very few exceptions. Well, as soon as an argument arises and becomes personal, you can see people changing to usted and using a more formal languange. It's very funny. There are also regional differences, of course. I live in the South where I think we use the usted form much more often than in the North. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6066 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 8 of 13 26 December 2009 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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There are also parts of the Spanish-speaking world where they say vos instead.
Parts of Central America, for example. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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