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Watches in Russian! | ||
Tags: Translation | Russian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Woland Diglot Newbie Russian Federation Joined 6222 days ago 21 posts - 23 votes Speaks: English*, Russian Studies: Spanish | Message 1 of 8 12 March 2010 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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Here's an interesting question a friend posed to me today - how would you say '23 watches' in Russian? Now, we know that часы is plural. We also know that, after 2, 3, and 4 we need genetive singular. So - двадцать три часа? Can't be, because that would be 23 (i.e. 11) o'clock. OK - двадцать три часов? This is just ungrammatical! We can deal with three watches fairly easily (or so my Russian wife reckons) - трое часов. This sounds quite good, but двадцать трое часов? Sounds very odd to me. So how do we get around this problem? My wife says (although she's not sure) that we could say двадцать три пары часов. Once again, this sounds a little strange. Another friend said something like this - двадцать три наручных часов. But this is, once again, ungrammatical (and, what if it's 23 clocks?? двадцать три настенных часов?). What about двадцать три штуки (when referring to watches, of course)? I'm very confused! Any suggestions would be very welcome. (And I'm aware that, practically, we really have no need to say 23 watches in Russian. This is a purely grammatical observation).
On the same lines, how would we say 'I have many dreams' (dream as in мечта, and not сон) in Russian? У меня много мечт, although grammatically correct, is obviously wrong. What about Я много о чем мечтаю, or я о многом мечтаю? Any thoughts? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| dantalian Diglot Senior Member Bouvet Island Joined 5493 days ago 125 posts - 156 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 2 of 8 12 March 2010 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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Russians definitely would never dream of having 23 watches :))
Seriously, I would say «двадцать три пары часов». Certainly I don't mean 46 watches. Why? Because watches normally are sold with a wristlet and every wristlet has two ends with a watch in between of them. So, it is absolutely logical to say 23 "pairs" of watches :)) If you don’t like my explanations have a look at this link for more detail and other viewpoints: http://shininghappypeople.net/rwotd/ Phrases «Я много о чем мечтаю» and «Я о многом мечтаю» sound natural.I can also suggest «Меня переполняют мечты». Edited by dantalian on 12 March 2010 at 11:18pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Woland Diglot Newbie Russian Federation Joined 6222 days ago 21 posts - 23 votes Speaks: English*, Russian Studies: Spanish | Message 3 of 8 12 March 2010 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the reply! I actually found that site after I had already posted my question. It's definitely interesting logic about the 'pairs' of watches, but I can understand it! Interestingly, the site you referenced states that some Russians may see the phrase "двадцать три пары часов" as 'substandard speech', when compared with "двадцать три штуки часов".
I'm not so sure that many Muscovites would not dream of owning 23 watches! (I'm joking, of course!) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| dantalian Diglot Senior Member Bouvet Island Joined 5493 days ago 125 posts - 156 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 4 of 8 12 March 2010 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | ||
Frankly, I would never say "двадцать три штуки часов" in spite of Rosenthal's recommendation. It just sounds worse to me( I have a philological degree though :))) Off the top of my head, you can also say "Я весь в мечтах". Edited by dantalian on 12 March 2010 at 10:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ember Triglot Groupie CyprusRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5214 days ago 63 posts - 101 votes Speaks: Russian*, English, German Studies: Spanish, French, Greek, Polish | Message 5 of 8 13 March 2010 at 8:40am | IP Logged | ||
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Rosental (http://www.evartist.narod.ru/text1/59.htm) recommends "двадцать три штуки часов" as an example of formal speech/text. You are unlikely to say it colloquially. But I wouldn't say "двадцать три пары часов" either, since a watch does not consist of two identical parts (like trousers, scissors etc. - with which you have to use "pair"). I would find some way to avoid it completely by restructuring the sentence. For example, instead of "Мы купили 23 ??часов??, чтобы подарить нашим сотрудникам" I would say "Мы купили часы в подарок каждому из наших 23 сотрудников" or something like that. You just have to be a little bit more creative :)
ETA: and about dreams... I would say "Я о многом мечтаю" Edited by ember on 13 March 2010 at 8:43am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Siberiano Tetraglot Senior Member Russian Federation one-giant-leap.Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6304 days ago 465 posts - 696 votes Speaks: Russian*, English, ItalianC1, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Serbian | Message 6 of 8 14 March 2010 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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Good topic, Woland! There are a number of words that aren't in use, and facing the necessity to say them is always a trick, like "5 кочерг". I'd like to know if there are similar examples in other Slavic languages.
Actually, in journalism I see sometimes these words being said intentionally to make a (comic) emphasis, like - бдеть: лучше перебдеть чем недобдеть (from бдение) (I'd like to hear someone conjugate this one!) - блюду/блюжу, блюдишь, блюдят, блюдим, блюдите, блюдят (from блюсти) - сбыча мечт (сбыться, мечта/мечты) 1) одни часы - двое часов - трое часов. Hence I'd say "двадцать трое часов", even though it sounds strange. Still it's undestrandable. :) 2) your versions seem good. "Я о многом мечтаю" - sounds well. Пять кочерг? Пять кочерёг? Прямо горла поперёк. Кочергов? Нет, в женском роде. Кочерыжек? Не подходит. Я так больше не могу! Поломаю кочергу! Edited by Siberiano on 14 March 2010 at 7:44pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cherepaha Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6400 days ago 126 posts - 175 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Polish, Latin, French | Message 7 of 8 17 March 2010 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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I would second the statement that "двадцать три пары часов" sounds correct to me. (Coming from St.Petersburg with a philological degree like dantalian.)
"Двадцать три штуки часов" is not something I would use unless jocularly. I can imagine a situation where this phrase may sound odd to one's ear (due to the infrequency of usage), and as a result a person would say "двадцать три пары? штуки? совом, единицы :) часов" or something along those lines. Regarding dreaming we can expand the list by: Он размечтался. (He started to imagine/hope for the impossible) Я замечтался. (I became distracted) Она мечтательна. (She is pensive) Я мечтательница. (I am a dreamer) Мечты! Мечты! (Dreams! Dreams!) Edited by Cherepaha on 17 March 2010 at 12:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cherepaha Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6400 days ago 126 posts - 175 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Polish, Latin, French | Message 8 of 8 17 March 2010 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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A quick search brings a couple of suggested explanations, although many Q&A forums seem to claim that the expression is colloquial or not correct, so take these for what they are – a hypotheses:
1/ Почти всё, что надевалось на руки/ноги/уши является парным: обувь, перчатки, серьги, очки. Может быть по ассоциации, как бы "по инерции" и наручные часы стали называть "парой", тем более, что часы-механизм не имеют единственного числа? А перстни и кольца единственное число имеют и поэтому их считают штуками, а не "парами". Most items worn on one's arms, legs, ears, eyes (gloves, pants, earrings, glasses, etc.) consist of two items, thus forming a pair. It is possible that a wrist watch is included in this list "by inertia". 2/ Известен, однако, факт, что в начале 19 в. было модно носить двое часов на ленточках у верха панталон, лишь позднее стали носить одни часы в кармане жилета, развешивая цепочку. Так что можно с осторожностью предположить, что подобное словоупотребление восходит к историческим реалиям культурной жизни. In the early 19th century it was fashionable to wear two watches hanging on ribbons at the top of one's pantaloons. So, it is possible that the usage of "a pair of watches" goes back to that historical reality. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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