Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7146 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish
| Message 9 of 22 21 March 2010 at 7:12pm | IP Logged |
Arekkusu wrote:
La fleur vs. il fiore is another example of divergence. That one is a mystery to me. |
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Here are some more exceptions which work against the idea that modern intra-Romance cognates should have the same gender.
milk: lait (m) (French); latte (m) (Italian); leche (f) (Spanish)
air: air (m) (French); aira (f) (Italian); aire (m) (Spanish)
fruit: fruit (m) (French); frutto (m) / frutta (f) (Italian); fruta (f) (Spanish)
smoke: fumée (f) (French); fumo (m) (Italian); humo (m) (Spanish)
sea: mer (f) (French); mare (m) (Italian); mar (m) (Spanish - but I've been told that it can be feminine in literature or certain expressions)
salt: sel (m) (French); sale (m) (Italian); sal (f) (Spanish)
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tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5443 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin
| Message 10 of 22 21 March 2010 at 9:06pm | IP Logged |
Chung wrote:
fruit: fruit (m) (French); frutto (m) / frutta (f) (Italian); fruta (f) (Spanish) |
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Fruto (m) also exists in Spanish.
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Gamauyun Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5638 days ago 26 posts - 36 votes Speaks: English*, Russian Studies: Romanian, German
| Message 11 of 22 22 March 2010 at 9:49pm | IP Logged |
When the neuter gender was lost in the Romance languages, were words that were formerly neuter in Latin shifted to one particular gender, or was it more random? I have almost no knowledge of the Romance languages, aside from their influence on English, so I apologize if this is a stupid question.
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Felidae Diglot Newbie BrazilRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5397 days ago 28 posts - 34 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English Studies: French
| Message 12 of 22 22 March 2010 at 10:01pm | IP Logged |
They shifted to masculine
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Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7146 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish
| Message 13 of 22 22 March 2010 at 10:14pm | IP Logged |
Gamauyun wrote:
When the neuter gender was lost in the Romance languages, were words that were formerly neuter in Latin shifted to one particular gender, or was it more random? I have almost no knowledge of the Romance languages, aside from their influence on English, so I apologize if this is a stupid question. |
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The reinterpretation of Latin gender in the modern Romance languages doesn't seem to follow a recognizable pattern. Compare the terms for "milk" and "sea" to see how neuter Latin words are represented in French, Italian, and Spanish.
milk: lait (m) (French); latte (m) (Italian); leche (f) (Spanish) cf. LAC (n) (Latin)
air: air (m) (French); aira (f) (Italian); aire (m) (Spanish) cf. AER (m) (Latin)
fruit: fruit (m) (French); frutto (m) / frutta (f) (Italian); fruto (m) / fruta (f) (Spanish) cf. FRUCTUS (m), FRUX (f) (Latin)
smoke: fumée (f) (French); fumo (m) (Italian); humo (m) (Spanish) cf. FUMUS (m) (Latin)
sea: mer (f) (French); mare (m) (Italian); mar (m) (Spanish - but I've been told that it can be feminine in literature or certain expressions) cf. MARE (n) (Latin)
salt: sel (m) (French); sale (m) (Italian); sal (f) (Spanish) cf. SAL (m) (Latin)
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MäcØSŸ Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5799 days ago 259 posts - 392 votes Speaks: Italian*, EnglishC2 Studies: German
| Message 14 of 22 22 March 2010 at 10:24pm | IP Logged |
Gamauyun wrote:
When the neuter gender was lost in the Romance languages, were words that were formerly
neuter in Latin shifted to one particular gender, or was it more random? I have almost no knowledge of the
Romance languages, aside from their influence on English, so I apologize if this is a stupid question. |
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Actually in Italian and Romanian some words (many in the latter) retain the “neuter gender”, but they’re actually
words with masculine singular and feminine plural.
E.g. L’uovo ----> Le uova
L’osso----> Le ossa
Oul---->Ouăle
Osul---->Oasele
Edited by MäcØSŸ on 22 March 2010 at 10:24pm
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Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6001 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh
| Message 15 of 22 22 March 2010 at 10:33pm | IP Logged |
(One minor observation -- "fumée" is a special case, as it has been rederived from the verb -- it's taken from the past participle, which isn't a common source of nouns in any language.)
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tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5443 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin
| Message 16 of 22 22 March 2010 at 11:00pm | IP Logged |
Cainntear wrote:
(One minor observation -- "fumée" is a special case, as it has been rederived from the verb --
it's taken from the past participle, which isn't a common source of nouns in any language.) |
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I don't think it is that uncommon. Past participles can be used as adjectives, and adjectives in turn as nouns. I
suspect the Latin fructus to come from a past participle as well.
Edited by tractor on 22 March 2010 at 11:06pm
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