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Chung at work / Chung pri práci

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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4480 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 9 of 541
06 July 2010 at 4:43am | IP Logged 
I just finished the trip yesterday and it was great from a cultural point of view. Midsummer in the countryside was the highlight but I also enjoyed visiting Turku and Savo and of course Helsinki as well as making new friends among the Finns. From a linguistic point of view the trip brought mixed results. I spoke more English than Finnish and was confounded by the degree to which colloquial Finnish differs from standard Finnish. Yet I came upon Finnish-language geek heaven in bookstores by picking up some books ranging from Gummerus' new, thick English-Finnish dictionary (70 000 headwords) on sale for 17 Euros (regular price is around 50 Euros!) to a couple of Finnish translations from the series of French short stories "Le Petit Nicolas".

I'll add some comments in the revised Finnish profile about the relevant stuff that I bought and saw in Finnish bookstores.



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4480 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 10 of 541
18 August 2010 at 5:40pm | IP Logged 
I've finished chapter 34 in "Finnish for Foreigners" and now it's onto the next chapter.

I recently received my copy of Koirien Kalevala (The Dogs' Kalevala) and I highly recommend it to anyone learning Finnish even if it's just an adaptation of the Kalevala as a picture book. The text is appropriate for someone who is at high-beginning or low-intermediate stage in learning Finnish and some of the illustrations will bring a smile.



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4480 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 11 of 541
28 September 2010 at 6:32pm | IP Logged 
It's been a busy time recently but only some of it has been occupied by language-learning, unfortunately.

---

I've just come back from a trip through Eastern Europe and in Slovakia managed to get my hands on the new Slovak course for intermediate students "Slovenčina ako cudzí jazyk - B. Hovorme spolu po slovensky!". God knows when I'll start working through it but getting suitable material is half the battle. It looks pretty good being broadly designed as a communicative course with two textbooks, two workbooks, two CDs and a book on grammar. It's definitely better than trying to plough through otherwise similar courses that are designed for beginners.

In Slovakia I also learned about the quasi-folk-hero Ladislav Meliško. He is a middle-aged man whose drunken shouting and cursing annoyed his neighbours so much that they secretly set up microphones in his apartment and then released the recordings on YouTube. Run a search on YouTube with "Melisko" and you can hear vulgar Slovak. I got a good laugh when my hosts showed me the clips on YouTube and I also got a small dose of the world of Slovak cursing.

Here are a few particularly funny instances of Meliško's cursing (NB offensive language used but only so if you are thin-skinned AND know Czech or Slovak)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJrDYLo2EY0 (Meliško's shouting as a voice-over in "Just for Laughs")

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpmSDBkHDAA (Meliško's complaints about there being no onions at home)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMInaWPK2tg (Meliško's and his wife's arguing as voice-overs of Cookie Monster and Martha Stewart)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZkKftel-5s (Meliško's ranting as a voice-over of a speech by Obama)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvMN6DA01HI (Meliško's ranting is the subject of a national news report when a prankster linked recordings of him to a PA system in a residential neighbourhood in a town in northern Slovakia)

---

While in Poland I picked up these new words or idioms whose use by a foreigner would illustrate a certain understanding of Polish cultural sensibilities.

1) Raz na ruski rok (rarely) - It literally means "once in a Russian year" with the implication of rarity inherent in no one knowing with certainty how long a "Russian" year is.

2) ...jak w czeskim filmie (used to refer to something incomprehensible or incoherent) - It literally means "...just like in a Czech film" and reflects an impression among many Poles about the absurdity or incoherent nature of Czech cinema.

3) połówka (half-liter bottle of any kind of liquor or spirits) - The term is derived from "pół" (half) and is used in a somewhat similar way to the English terms "mickey" or "26er" (i.e. 26 oz. bottle of alcohol). For example:

"A coście robili wczoraj?" - "Nic szczególnego. Zrobiliśmy połówkę i gadaliśmy."

"But what did you do yesterday?" - "Nothing in particular. We did (i.e. drank/downed) a half-liter and chatted."
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4480 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 12 of 541
02 October 2010 at 11:34pm | IP Logged 
Last week I was having dinner with one of my Polish friends and she was amused by how I was mixing Slovak with Polish. Just for fun we started to come up with false friends or near-false friends between Polish and Slovak. Here are some that sounded particularly funny to her.

czerstwy = stale (usu. of bread) (Polish)
čerstvý = fresh (Slovak)

frajer = gullible man, sucker (Polish)
frajer = boyfriend (Slovak)

(This pair also exists for the ladies in "frajerka" which bears the same negative and positive connotations in Polish and Slovak respectively)

mieszkanie = apartment (Polish)
meškanie = delay (Slovak)

sok = juice (Polish)
sok = opponent (Slovak)

sopel = icicle (Polish)
sopeľ = snot (Slovak)

stan = condition, status (Polish)
stan = tent (Slovak)

szukam = I'm looking for... (Polish)
šukám = I'm fuc*ing... (Slovak)

zachód = west (Polish)
záchod = toilet (Slovak)

zapach = odour, fragrance (Polish)
zápach = stench (Slovak)
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4480 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 13 of 541
13 February 2011 at 6:49am | IP Logged 
As I've been slowly grinding in Finnish, I've found that I'm getting tripped up quite a bit by the treatment of the direct object. Part of the problem is that the accusative as I've grown used to learning or using has endings that depend on the nature of the noun itself (often number or gender when applicable). Constructing the accusative in this way is the way it is in the Indo-European languages that I've studied (the only wrinkle is that some Slavonic languages decline a direct object of a negated verb as if it were in genitive rather than accusative, and even this did not turn out to be notably troublesome for me). The Hungarian accusative was also just as easy with nouns or adjectives just taking "-t" as the accusative suffix regardless of number or any aspect or characteristic of the relevant verb.

Up until I began studying Finnish the most difficult expression of accusative that I had encountered was in Estonian where I was introduced to the idea that the direct object's case ending depends not only on the noun's nature but also on the relevant verb and how it "accuses" the direct object or even what the verb's mood is. The direct object in Estonian or Finnish has definitely not been as easy for me to learn as it was in Hungarian or any Slavonic language that I've dealt with. In Finnish, an adjective or noun in the direct object can take on endings canonically treated as "nominative", "genitive" and "partitive", while personal pronouns in the direct object can take on endings canonically treated as "accusative" and "partitive". In other words, the Finnish endings for direct object take the ones from nominative, accusative, genitive or partitive depending on various factors.

While poring over my Finnish textbooks and explanations on-line, I've been putting together a flow-chart illustrating the thought-process that Finns could go through in determining which case ending to use (albeit they do this almost instantaneously and subconsciously and may not be aware of elaborate it is for learners).

As part of my chart I've created example sentences for each node on the flow-chart/presumed hierarchy and would appreciate it if any native-speaking Finn here could check these sentences and rules. The rules and sentences below should not be taken as faultless until confirmed otherwise!. Afterwards I could offer via e-mail the completed flow-chart as an aid for anyone who is studying Finnish.

Considerations for good sense or frequency were obviously discarded in some sentences as in the ones where someone is being operated on at the same time as newspapers are being read.

DIRECT OBJECTS THAT ARE PERSONAL PRONOUNS

1) Personal pronouns are in partitive when they are negated direct objects.

Etkö näe minua? // Älä ammu heitä! // Häntä ei leikata huomenna.

2) Personal pronouns are in partitive when they are direct objects of irresultive / "partitive" verbs or in sentences where the process is emphasized.

Katsotko minua? // Ammu heitä! // Häntä leikataan tänään (i.e. he/she is being operated on, and the operating is emphasized or we don't know whether it will be successful).

3) Personal pronouns are in partitive when they are direct objects of simultaneous actions.

Näen sinua ja otan heitä mukaan. // Ota häntä ja työnnä heitä pois! // Häntä leikataan ja lehteä luetaan.

4) Personal pronouns are in accusative when they are direct objects of a sentence of obligation.

Minun piti ottaa sinut mukaan.

5) Personal pronouns are in accusative when they are total direct objects of the passive.

Hänet leikataan huomenna.

6) Personal pronouns are in accusative when they are direct objects of an impersonal sentence with the infinitive.

On kiva nähdä sinut.

7) Personal pronouns are in accusative when they are direct objects for verbs in imperative for the 1st or 2nd persons.

Ottakaamme heidät mukaan! // Työnnä hänet pois!

8) Personal pronouns are in partitive when they are direct objects for verbs in imperative for the 3rd person.

Ottakoon heitä mukaan! // Työntäkööt häntä pois!

9) If none of these rules applies, then the personal pronoun is not a direct object.


DIRECT OBJECTS THAT ARE NOT PERSONAL PRONOUNS

1) Adjectives or nouns are in partitive when they are negated direct objects.

Etkö lue kirjaa / kirjoja? // Älä juo olutta! // Kirjaa / Kirjoja ei lueta.

2) Adjectives or nouns are in partitive when they are direct objects of an irresultive/"partitive" verb or in sentences where the process is emphasized.

Luen kirjaa / kirjoja (i.e. the fact that I'm reading is more important than the book(s)). // Juo olutta! (i.e. The drinking is more important than the beer) // Kirjaa / Kirjoja luetaan. (i.e. The fact of their being read is more important than the book(s))

3) Adjectives and nouns are in partitive when they are direct objects of undefined quantity, mass objects or abstract ideas.

Luen kirjaa / kirjoja. (i.e. I'm reading part of a book, or some undefined amount of books) // Juo vettä! (i.e. drink (some) water!) // Kirjaa / Kirjoja luetaan. (i.e. some part of a book or some books are being read)

4) Adjectives and nouns are in partitive singular when they are direct objects that are modified by any number other than 1.

Luen kolme kirjaa. // Juo puoli lasia viiniä! // Neljä kirjaa luetaan.

5) Adjectives and nouns are in partitive when they are direct objects of simultaneous actions.

Luen lehteä ja syön munaa. // Lue lehteä ja syö munaa! // Kirjaa luetaan ja munaa syödään.

6) Adjectives and nouns are in nominative when they are direct objects of a sentence of obligation.

Minun täytyy (lukea) kirja / kirjat. // Sallan pitäisi ostaa auto.

7) Adjectives and nouns are in nominative when they are implied total direct objects of the passive.

Kirja / kirjat ostetaan tänään. // Presidentti leikataan huomenna.

8) Adjectives and nouns are in nominative when they are direct objects for verbs in imperative for the 1st or 2nd persons.

Ota kirja! / kirjat! // Lukekaamme lehti! / lehdet!

9) Adjectives and nouns are in partitive when they are direct objects for verbs in imperative for the 3rd person.

Ottakoon kirjaa / kirjoja! // Lukekoot lehteä! / lehtiä!

10) Adjectives and nouns are in genitive singular when they are singular total direct objects and in nominative plural when they are plural total direct objects.

Kirjoitan yhden kirjeen. // Luen kirjan / kirjat. // Hän ostaa talon / talot. // Tapaavat nuoren ihmisen / nuoret ihmiset. //

11) If none of these rules applies, then the adjective or noun is not a direct object.
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Kounotori
Triglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 2668 days ago

136 posts - 129 votes 
Speaks: Finnish*, English, Russian
Studies: Mandarin

 
 Message 14 of 541
13 February 2011 at 2:33pm | IP Logged 
Caveat: I completely rely on my innate sense of the language and I have no formal training in Finnish apart from Finnish classes in school. But these are the things I noticed that were kind of off (they may or may not be relevant points):

Quote:
Näen sinua ja otan heitä mukaan.


Grammatically correct but something is amiss.

Näen sinut. = I see you.
Näen sinua. = incomplete by itself, needs something else, for example:
Näen sinua niin harvoin. = I see you so rarely.
- or -
Olen iloinen, kun näen sinua/sinut. = I am happy when I see you.

Also:

Näin heitä auttamassa ihmisiä. = I saw some of them helping people.
Näin heidät auttamassa ihmisiä. = I saw them helping people.

Quote:
Ota häntä ja työnnä heitä pois!


Say "Ota hänet ja työnnä heitä pois". Otherwise it would sound like you were taking "some of him", which is physically quite impossible. The partitive is okay here with "heitä".

Quote:
6) Personal pronouns are in accusative when they are direct objects of an impersonal sentence with the infinitive.

On kiva nähdä sinut.


You could also say "On kiva nähdä sinua" with essentially no change in meaning (Finnish must be really confusing...)

Quote:
Luen kolme kirjaa.


No mistakes, just an observation:

Luen kolme kirjaa. = I will read three books.
Luen kolmea kirjaa. = I read/am reading three books.
Luin kolme kirjaa. = I read three books.
Luin kolmea kirjaa. = I was reading three books.

Quote:
Neljä kirjaa luetaan.


Observation:

Neljä kirjaa luetaan. = Four books will be read.
Neljää kirjaa luetaan. = Four books are (being) read.

Quote:
Ottakoon kirjaa


Ottakoon kirjan (but "kirjoja" is correct).

--

Hyvää työtä! :) Sinulla oli varmasti kamalan turhauttava ja raskas työ tuon listan kokoamisessa.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4480 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 15 of 541
13 February 2011 at 7:41pm | IP Logged 
Kiitti Kounotori. No vivahdetta on yllin kyllin suomessa.

Teen muutoksia vuokaavioon.

Onko joku muu jolla on huomautuksia vai ehdotuksia?



Marikki
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 2819 days ago

130 posts - 80 votes 
Speaks: Finnish*, English, Spanish, Swedish
Studies: German

 
 Message 16 of 541
15 February 2011 at 7:02pm | IP Logged 
3) Personal pronouns are in partitive when they are direct objects of simultaneous actions. 

Näen sinua ja otan heitä mukaan. // Ota häntä ja työnnä heitä pois! // Häntä leikataan ja lehteä luetaan. 

************
************

Ensimmäinen ajatukseni oli, että näissä kaikissa kolmessa esimerkkilauseessa on jotakin pielessä. Sainkin
miettiä aika kauan, ennen kuin älysin mitä. Teoriassa lauseiden kielioppi on kunnossa. Partitiivin käyttö
tekemisen samanaikaisuuden korostamisessa ilmeisesti kuitenkin vaatii sen, että kuulija saa helposti selvän
ja loogisen
mielikuvan samanaikaisesta tekemisestä. Esimerkkien jotkut verbit ovat sellaisia, että ne eivät tue
asiayhteyttä. Asiayhteyden saisi ehkä luotua pitemmällä lauseella tai kuvauksella. Tässä muutama
mielestäni toimivampi lyhyt esimerkkilause:

Katson sinua ja kuuntelen heitä.
Auta häntä ja työnnä heitä pois. / Ota häntä kädestä kiinni ja työnnä heitä pois.



Edited by Marikki on 15 February 2011 at 7:19pm




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