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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 161 of 541
29 July 2012 at 5:39pm | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just finished Chapter 18 of "Kuulostaa hyvältä". The chapter's dialogue is a conversation between Jutta and Anna about Anssi. The grammatical features introduced are other uses of the passive present and time expressions using the inessive and illative.

***

HUNGARIAN

I finished the audio exercises for the second half of Chapter 11 and started the exercises for the first half of Chapter 12 in DLI Hungarian Basic Course. The main grammatical features taught in Chapter 12 are the plural of adjectives and the present tense of "to be" in full. Even though the material is not new at all to me, I do enjoy doing the drills in short intervals to get myself back in the habit of speaking even a little but of Hungarian. I do wish though that I had a substantial course for independent students aiming to get competency at B1 or B2 comparable to Slovenčina ako cudzí jazyk "B" for Slovak.

I recently found the textbook Felsőfokon magyarul on the Hungarian Electronic Library but it seems too advanced for me. Perhaps someone at a higher level in Hungarian than I can take advantage of it.

***

MEADOW MARI

I've finished Lesson 2 in the textbook "Оҥай марий йылме: A Comprehensive Introduction to the Mari Language" where I got acquainted with the present tense for 3rd person, accusative and genitive cases, possessive suffixes for 3rd person, and ordinal numbers. This chapter was fairly substantial but I was happy for the backup in the supporting exercises (including those involving my rewriting of dialogues using assigned cue words) which allowed me to get used to the suffixes and their triggering of alternations to a stem's final unstressed vowel where applicable.

There were a couple of similarities between the new material in Mari and what I can remember from the other Finno-Ugric languages that I've studied.

1) Plural for 3rd person

"to live, they live"
илаш, илат (Mari)
elama, elavad (Estonian)
elää, elävät (Finnish)
eallit, ellet (Northern Saami)

"his/her/its child, their child"
йочаже, йочашт (Mari)

[Cf. laps ~ lapsed (Estonian); lapsi, lapset (Finnish); mánná ~ mánát (Northern Saami) "child ~ children")

The suffix -t has connotations of plurality and probably began as a suffix indicating substantives' plural and then in Mari came to indicate not only the third person plural ("they") but also the subject's / possessor's plurality. See here for some examples of -t used to mark plural in other Uralic languages.

2) Genitive suffix

"Whose house [is] this? - [It's] Elu's house."
Тиде кöн пöртшö? - Елун пöртшö (Mari)
]Kenen tämä talo on? - Se on Elun talo (Finnish)

The cognates that I detected in the unit and then verified were:

- йылме "language; tongue" [cf. nyelv (Hungarian); njálbmi "mouth" (Northern Saami)]
- нуно "they" [cf. nuo "that over there" (Finnish); nubbi "second" (Northern Saami - derivative)]
- пöрт "house" [? cf. purnu "container" (Finnish); buornna "stone coffin" (Lule Saami)]
- тунемаш "to learn" (derivative) [cf. tan: tanulni (Hungarian - derivative)]
- эрге "son" [cf. yrkä "suitor" (Finnish), ér: férj "husband" (Hungarian)]

***

UKRAINIAN

I completed Unit 3 of "Teach Yourself Ukrainian". The chapter's dialogues introduced the accusative and terms for kinship.

***

MISCELLANEA

As mentioned in the last entry, here's a new set of expressions. This one is for wishing good luck.

- Good luck! (or something with that connotation)

- Onnea! (Finnish)
- Sok szerencsét! (Hungarian)
- Veiksmi! (Latvian)
- Lihku mátkái! (Northern Saami)
- Powodzenia! (Polish)
- Veľa šťastia! (Slovak)
- Щасти! (Ukrainian)

(Sorry, I can't find out what is used among the Mari)

______


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Marikki
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 Message 162 of 541
29 July 2012 at 7:23pm | IP Logged 
Quote:
- пöрт "house" [? cf. purnu "container" (Finnish); buornna "stone coffin" (Lule Saami)]

*******

"Pirtti" is an old word for a smallish log house in Finnish. I think it is interesting that many Finnish "something-
pirtti" place names are "something-pört" in Swedish. As far as I know pört does not mean anything in
Swedish. Translating place names is not a custom in Finland, both the Swedish and Finnish place names are
normally real historical names. Maybe the Swedish speaking population has just adopted some really old
place names (pört vs. pirtti) from some people that have used the word pört.

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Chung
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 Message 163 of 541
29 July 2012 at 8:42pm | IP Logged 
Marikki wrote:
Quote:
- пöрт "house" [? cf. purnu "container" (Finnish); buornna "stone coffin" (Lule Saami)]

*******

"Pirtti" is an old word for a smallish log house in Finnish. I think it is interesting that many Finnish "something-
pirtti" place names are "something-pört" in Swedish. As far as I know pört does not mean anything in
Swedish. Translating place names is not a custom in Finland, both the Swedish and Finnish place names are
normally real historical names. Maybe the Swedish speaking population has just adopted some really old
place names (pört vs. pirtti) from some people that have used the word pört.


On the Saamic etymological database, Álgu, I found out that pirtti is usually considered to be a loanword from Russian or some predecssor of it. Max Vasmer's etymological dictionary of Russian has an entry перть which refers to a kind of house in Karelia made of logs with the word being a loanword from a Baltic language (cf. Latvian pirts "bathhouse, sauna"). It eventually found its way into the languages of neighbouring peoples via Russian with Finnish pirtti, Mari пöрт and Chuvash pürt being examples. Inari Saami's portta and Northern Saami's barta are also linked but seem to have come about as loanwords from the Finnish pirtti rather than the Russian перть.

Your intuition was definitely onto something by linking pirtti and пöрт

On the other hand, my source for a possible Finno-Permic link seems even more out of place, even though it did seem questionable to the compilers of the Uralic etymological database. The vocalism and semantics of пöрт compared to purnu, buornna etc. seem too divergent even to my unspecialized mind.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/bdescr.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\uralic\uralet wrote:
English meaning: vessel, box
German meaning: Behälter, Kiste, Gefäss
Finnish: purnu 'Kornkasten, Kiste, Behälter, Kasten'
Saam (Lapp): puor'na (L) 'im Wald gebaute steinerne Truhe, Steinkasten', pūrn (T) 'Häuschen, wo die aus dem Fuchsbau genommenen jungen Füchse gefüttert werden', pūr̄n(a) (Kld.), pŭŏr̄n̄a (Ko. Not.) 'Balkenwerk für Aufbewahrungszwecke (in der Erde)'
Mari (Cheremis): (? here: pört 'Stube, Wohnhaus' - SAS)
Udmurt (Votyak): be̮rńo (J M Uf.) 'Mühltrichter, Braukufe' ( > Chuv. pǝrne 'Körbchen', pǝrme 'Mühltrichter')
Komi (Zyrian): burńa (S) 'großes, rundes Gefäß aus einem Stück Espenholz, bes. zum Schütten des Getreides od. auch zum Aufbewahren von allerlei Sachen' (Proto-Perm. or Udm. > Mari J JU pŭrńa 'Korb aus Linden- od. Birkenrinde')

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PolyglotNZ
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 Message 164 of 541
12 August 2012 at 1:50am | IP Logged 
Szia Chung!

Have you had a look at Jó szórakozást magyarul!? It is meant to be a book for B1 to B2 level.

By the way, what level does Kuulostaa hyvältä reach? B1 or higher?

Cheers!
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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 165 of 541
12 August 2012 at 8:37am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just finished Chapter 19 of "Kuulostaa hyvältä". The chapter's dialogue is about Kari and Anna preparing to hold a birthday party at their apartment and then mingling among the guests. The grammatical features introduced are temporal expressions and their use of nominative, genitive, partitive, inessive, illative and translative, as circumstances dictate.

***

HUNGARIAN

I finished the audio exercises for Chapter 12 in DLI Hungarian Basic Course. The main grammatical features taught in Chapter 12 are the plural of adjectives and the present tense of "to be" in full.

***

MEADOW MARI

I've finished Lesson 3 in the textbook "Оҥай марий йылме: A Comprehensive Introduction to the Mari Language" where I learned about the present tense and possessive suffixes for 1st and 2nd persons singular, the illative, kinship terms and more about the verb "to be". As with the preceding chapter, it was fairly substantial but I was put through my paces with many supporting exercises which allowed me to get used to the new concepts and reinforce what I first encountered in the second chapter (particularly the 3rd person suffixes for present tense and possession as they can vary depending on the stem or can set off certain alternations to the final unstressed vowel of the stem.

Kinship in Mari is treated quite elaborately with terms sometimes indicating not only matrilineal or patrilineal connection but also age relative to the parent or self and connection by parentage or marriage. See here for examples in a family tree. It seems to be more elaborate than English's inventory of kinship terms which tends to be rather analytic e.g. "maternal aunt", "older brother", "sister-in-law") and for certain roles reminds me of Northern Saami's nomenclature.

E.g.
self's generation:
brother, sister; (first) cousin
- изa (older) / шольо (younger), ака (older) / шÿжар (younger) [N.B. These terms are also used for cousins; potentially confusing] (Meadow Mari)
- viellja, oabbá; oambealli (female) / vilbealli (male) (Northern Saami)

self's offspring and their contemporaries:
daughter, son; nephew, niece
- ÿдрыр, эрге; изан эргыже (older brother's son) / акан эргыже (older sister's son) / шольын эргыже (younger brother's son) / шÿжарын эргыже (younger sister's son), изан ÿдыржö (older brother's daughter) / акан ÿдыржö (older sister's daughter) / шольын ÿдыржö (younger brother's daughter) / шÿжарын ÿдыржö (younger sister's daughter) (Meadow Mari)
- nieida, bárdni; vieljabárdni, vieljanieida [N.B. The following are also used to refer to a niece or nephew: goaskit (child of a woman's younger sister) / muoŧŧal (child of a woman's older sister) / siessál (child of a woman's brother) / čeahcet (child of a man's older brother) / eahket (child of a man's younger brother) / neahpi (child of a man's sister)] (Northern Saami)

parents' generation:
father, mother; aunt, uncle; brother-in-law, sister-in-law
- ача, ава; ака (parent's younger sister) / кока (parent's older sister), иза (father's younger brother) / кугыза (parent's older brother) / курска (husband of a parent's younger sister) / чÿчÿ (mother's younger brother); курска (older sister's husband) / веҥе (younger sister's husband), еҥга (older brother's wife) / шешке (younger brother's wife) [N.B. Some of the terms for "aunt", "uncle" and siblings-in-law are used to refer to one's blood siblings. E.g. ака "older sister; parent's younger sister"] (Meadow Mari)
- áhčči, eadni; siessá (father's sister) / goaski (mother's older sister) / muoŧŧá (mother's younger sister) / ipmi (wife of the mother's brother), eahki (father's older brother) / čiehci (father's younger brother) / eanu (mother's brother) / máhka (husband of a parent's sister); sivjjot (husband's brother) / máhka (wife's brother), mannji (husband's sister) / sivjjot (wife's sister) [N.B. sivjjot can be interpreted as "sibling-in-law" by referring either to the husband's brother or the wife's sister] (Northern Saami)

grandparent's generation:
grandfather, grandmother
- коча, кова (Meadow Mari)
- áddjá, áhkku (Northern Saami)

What I found most interesting in this chapter is that the kinship terms forms in vocative even though the case is not considered to be distinct in Mari. The vocative forms for kinship terms usually end with or -ем/-ым (i.e. the possessive suffix of the 1st person singular). In none of the other Finno-Ugric languages that I've learned does one decline nouns or adjectives for vocative.

e.g.

"The mother is coming into the house."
Äiti on tulossa taloon. (Finnish)
Az anya jön a házba. (Hungarian)
Aва пöртыш толеш. (Meadow Mari)
Eadni boahtá vissui (Northern Saami)

"Mother! Come into the house!"
Äiti! Tulе taloon! (Finnish)
Anya! Jöjj be a házba! (Hungarian)
Авай! Tол пöртыш! (Meadow Mari)
Eadni! Boađe vissui! (Northern Saami)

The cognates that I detected in the lesson and then verified were:

- каяш "to leave" [cf. käima "to walk" (Estonian); käydä "to go [and return]" (Finnish)]
- кодаш "to stay" [cf. kadu "loss" (Estonian); kato "lack" (Finnish), hagyni "to allow; leave (sg swhere)" (Hungarian), guođđit "to drop off; leave (sg swhere)" (Northern Saami)]
- лийже "may [sg] be" [cf. leema "to become probably" (Estonian); lien-: lienen "I am probably" (Finnish - potential mood present tense of olla "to be"); lenni "to be" (Hungarian); leat "to be" (Northern Saami)]
- мый "I" [cf. ma, mina (Estonian); mä, minä (Finnish); én (Hungarian); mun (Northern Saami)]
- тый "you" (singular) [cf. sa, sina (Estonian); sä, sinä (Finnish); te (Hungarian); don (Northern Saami)]
- улаш "to be" [cf. olema (Estonian); olla (Finnish); vagy-/val-: vagyon "property" (Hungarian - derivative)]
- шÿжар "younger sister" [cf. sõsar "sister" (Estonian); sisar "sister" (Finnish)] (This is likely borrowed from a Baltic language cf. Lithuanian sesuo)

***

UKRAINIAN

I completed Unit 4 of "Teach Yourself Ukrainian". The chapter's dialogues introduced the genitive, possessive pronouns and more about the present tense. I've been finding that I learning two languages that use the Cyrillic script is probably helping me to get used to writing in Cyrillic more quickly than if I were learning just one such language.

***

MISCELLANEA

Here's a new set of expressions. This one is for telling people to shut up. Use carefully since it won't be taken kindly by the intended audience of people who is already fluent in the language.

- Shut up! (or something with that connotation to one person)

- (Ole) hiljaa! (Finnish)
- Kuss! (Hungarian)
- Aizver muti! (Latvian)
- Oro jaska! (Northern Saami)
- Zamknij się! (Polish)
- Drž hubu! (Slovak)
- Заткнися! (Ukrainian)

- Shut up! (or something with that connotation to more than one person)

- (Olkaa) hiljaa! (Finnish)
- Kussoljatok! (Hungarian)
- Aizveriet muti! (Latvian)
- Orru jaska! (addressed to dual), Orrоt jaska! (addressed to plural) (Northern Saami)
- Zamknijcie się! (Polish)
- Držte hubu! (Slovak)
- Заткніться! (Ukrainian)

______



Edited by Chung on 12 August 2012 at 9:04am

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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 166 of 541
12 August 2012 at 8:52am | IP Logged 
PolyglotNZ wrote:
Szia Chung!

Have you had a look at Jó szórakozást magyarul!? It is meant to be a book for B1 to B2 level.

By the way, what level does Kuulostaa hyvältä reach? B1 or higher?

Cheers!


I had strongly thought about getting it when I saw it on the shelf in a bookstore in Hungary last year, but decided against it. Although it would be a good fit for my background, my problem with it is that it's primarily meant to develop reading abilities albeit in a snazzy looking package. I already have FSI Hungarian Graded Reader (including all of the audio, not just what's on fsi-language-courses.org), and I'm looking for a course that lets me work on my active and passive abilities in as far as it's possible for a course for independent learners. A Hungarian equivalent of Slovenčina ako cudzí jazyk "B" would interest me strongly or even better, a Hungarian version of Oscar Swan's "Intermediate Polish". I think that the second or third volume of the Hungarolingua series could be a possibility in being similar to Slovenčina ako cudzí jazyk "B" but I do remember browsing it too while in Budapest and came out of it not overly impressed. I think that it was because it was primarily meant for the classroom, even though it did have an answer key for the workbooks' exercises.

I'm not sure exactly how far one reaches with Kuulostaa hyvältä after completing it but it seems that it'd leave someone near the border of A2 and B1 based on Inge Holsteyn's recommendation of the course to beginners and the following notes from the course's introduction:

Ahonen, Lili. “Sounds Good - Kuulostaa hyvältä.” SKS: Helsinki, 2005, p. 7 wrote:
Objectives
The course provides the prerequisites for students to move from instructional texts to authentic language either on a course, or to continue their studies in Finnish independently. After going through the course, learners will have a general overview of the structure of Finnish; they will have a command of the basic grammar appropriate typical of the written language. They will have a vocabulary of about 2000 words and the foundations for applying what they have learnt both passively and actively. They will be able to take part in simple conversations involving not only personal exchanges but also the communication of other information relevant to the situation. They will also be able to use a dictionary, to read authentic factual texts and write factual texts on the basis of what they have read.

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PolyglotNZ
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 Message 167 of 541
12 August 2012 at 10:14am | IP Logged 
Szia Chung!

Thank you for your comment about Kuulostaa hyvältä. I have attempted to learn Finnish several times, but I
always ended up failing because the materials were boring. I find Kuulostaa hyvältä entertaining, plus it has
video and I learn better and faster watching the dialogues, I seem to remember more. The DVDs that come with
Hungarolingua are great for me. I have watched those dialogues a thousand times and never get bored plus I can
practice while watching too.

Of the Hungarolingua series, I would then recommend you the blue book which is Hungarolingua 3. It has a lot
of stuff with three CDs and a very thick workbook. There are some group activities, but not that important.
Before going to Hungary, I taught myself Hungarian with Hungarolingua 1 and Halló, itt Magyarország! and I did
the Debrecen Summer course and finished the pink book which is Hungaroligua 2, I would say that is B1 while
Hungarolingua 3 is B2.

Cheers!
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Chung
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 Message 168 of 541
03 September 2012 at 3:27am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just finished Chapter 20 of "Kuulostaa hyvältä". The chapter's dialogue is about Anna helping Jutta look for a suitable dress to wear for an upcoming party. The most striking grammatical features introduced to me were the comparative and superlative, ordinal numbers and using locatives suggesting motion after verbs that referring to figurative or physical retrieval.

***

HUNGARIAN

I finished the audio exercises for Chapter 13 in DLI Hungarian Basic Course. The main grammatical features taught in Chapter 13 are negation of "to be" in present tense and sequence of plural and adverbial suffixes.

***

MEADOW MARI

I've finished Lesson 4 in the textbook "Оҥай марий йылме: A Comprehensive Introduction to the Mari Language" where I got introduced to the dative case, plural and adverbial suffixes, cardinal and ordinal numbers past 50, interrogative particles, some postpositions, and completed my understanding of the present tense and possessive suffixes by learning about the endings for the first and second persons in plural. As with the preceding chapter, it was fairly substantial but I was put through my paces with many supporting exercises which allowed me to get used to the new concepts and reinforce what I first encountered in the previous chapters.

While working through this chapter I got a more refined understanding of these oft-mentioned typological factoids about Uralic languages.

1) Uralic languages follow vowel harmony

I've already known that is strictly speaking false since Saamic languages and Estonian do not follow the principle at all. Hungarian follows it quite closely making distinctions also for the roundedness of front vowels (e vs. ö/ő, ü/ű). Finnish seems to be in-between with a broad split between front and back vowels and liberal use of e or i as "neutral" vowels which can appear in words whose other vowels are front or back only. In Meadow Mari, vowel harmony seems to resemble the Finnish model but is subordinated to a principle where the stressed vowel's quality determines the variant of the suffix used (and even then if the suffix does have variants that account for vowel harmony; some suffixes exist in one variant only).

e.g.

house ~ our house ~ in our house ~ for our house
- talo ~ talomme ~ talossamme ~ talollemme (Finnish - "back" vowel)
- пöрт ~ пöртна ~ пöртыштына ~ пöртланна / пöртналан (Meadow Mari - "front" vowel)
- ház ~ házunk ~ házunkban ~ házunknak (Hungarian - "back" vowel)

field ~ our field ~ in our field ~ for our field
- kenttä ~ kenttämme ~ kentässämme ~ kentällemme (Finnish - "front" vowel)
- пасу ~ пасуна ~ пасуштына ~ пасуланна / пасуналан (Meadow Mari - "back" vowel)
- mező ~ mezőnk ~ mezőnkben ~ mezőnknek (Hungarian - "front" vowel)

2) Uralic languages are agglutinative

This is true in greater or lesser degrees for these languages. The heavy use of internal alternations (consonant gradation and/or vocalic alternations) in most Saamic languages has however made them resemble fusional languages which often mark grammatical distinctions similarly merely by changing stems internally rather than adding endings. Like Finnish, Hungarian and Northern Saami, adding endings to stems in Meadow Mari can also trigger changes in the stem (in Meadow Mari, the preceding vowel may be reduced if unstressed) thus making the agglutinative process more elaborate than at first glance or as based on a superficial understanding of agglutination would indicate.

E.g.

oak tree ~ our oak tree ~ in our oak tree ~ for our oak tree
- tammi ~ tammemme ~ tammessamme ~ tammellemme (Finnish - note alternation of i ~ e in inflected forms)
- háika ~ munno (dual) / min (plural) háika ~ munno (dual) / min (plural)ikkas ~ munno (dual) / min (plural) háikii (Northern Saami - note internal alternation of ik ~ ikk and final -a ~ -i in inflected forms. Possession can be indicated similarly to Romance, Germanic and Balto-Slavonic languages by using genitive forms of personal pronouns similarly to possessive pronouns/adjectives)
- тумо ~ тумына ~ тумыштына ~ тумыланна / тумыналан (Meadow Mari - note alternation of o ~ ы in inflected forms)
- tölgyfa ~ tölgyfánk ~ tölgyfánkban ~ tölgyfánknak (Hungarian - note alternation of a ~ á in inflected forms)

The order of the suffixes also varies from one language to the next as noticeable in the examples. The general rule is that the possessive suffix follows the non-possessive suffixes in Finnish.

house ~ our house ~ in our house ~ in our houses
- talo ~ talomme ~ talossamme ~ taloissamme (Finnish)

On the other hand, Hungarian possessive suffixes precede the non-possessive suffixes. (The possessive plural -ai / -ei infixes are probably cognate with the Finnish plural suffix -i/-j

house ~ our house ~ in our house ~ in our houses
- ház ~ házunk ~ házunkban ~ házainkban (Hungarian)

Meadow Mari's sequence varies on the case while for the dative either sequence is acceptable.

E.g.

Order of suffixes in singular: possessive-case (~ "Hungarian order")

our house ~ our house (accusative) ~ of our house (genitive)
- пöртна ~ пöртнам ~ пöртнан

Order of suffixes in singular: case-possessive (~ "Finnish order")

our house ~ in our house (inessive) ~ into our house (illative)
- пöртна ~ пöртыштына ~ пöртышкына

Order of suffixes in singular: possessive-case OR case-possessive (either "Hungarian" or "Finnish" orders respectively is acceptable)

our house ~ for our house (dative)
- пöртна ~ пöртланна ~ пöртналан

Order of suffixes in plural:

a) stem-plural(-case)

house ~ houses ~ in (the) houses
- пöрт ~ пöрт-влак ~ пöрт-влакыште

b) stem-possessive-plural OR stem-plural-possessive

our houses
- пöрт-влакна OR пöртна-влак

c) stem-plural-possessive-case (if case is accusative, genitive or dative)

of our houses (genitive)
- пöрт-влакнан

d) stem-plural-case-possessive (if case is illative or inessive)

in our houses (inessive)
- пöрт-влакыштына

e) stem-possessive-plural-case (not dependent on case)

of our houses (genitive) ~ in our houses (inessive)
- пöртна-влакын ~ пöртна-влакыште

After all of this I'll smirk even harder if I ever come across anyone deriding Uralic languages with the prejudice that agglutination must be somehow simpler / more predictable for the learner than fusional processes.

3) Uralic languages rely more or totally on postpositions rather than prepositions

Strictly speaking this is true but it should not be construed that the postpositions in Uralic are inherently simpler than prepositions in Indo-European languages, nor should one conclude that prepositions don't exist at all in Uralic. Pre- and postpositions in Estonian, Finnish and Northern Saami tend to force the preceding noun or adjective to be declined into another case (often genitive or partitive). Hungarian postpositions however often do not impose such conditions on the relevant nouns or adjectives and so substantives modified by postpositions remain in nominative. Postpositions in Meadow Mari seem to behave more similarly to those in Hungarian than in the Balto-Finnic and Saamic languages in that they don't typically govern a case other than the nominative. However they have the added wrinkle in corresponding to case suffixes in the other Finno-Ugric languages. In comparison to Estonian, Finnish and Hungarian, Meadow Mari may seem less intimidating by relying heavily on 9 cases instead of the other three which each rely on over 14 cases. However Meadow Mari's postpositions help to make up for the apparent "deficiency" and they express concepts that correspond to case suffixes in those 3 aforementioned languages. Compared to Northern Saami, Meadow Mari may appear a little more difficult by counting the cases alone (Northern Saami's 6 versus Meadow Mari's 9) but it doesn't have consonant gradation which is used extensively and elaborately in Northern Saami thus making the learning of Northern Saami's inflection more demanding on the learner than it may initially appear.

E.g.

I am from Hungary. (i.e. Hungarian origin)
- Olen pärit Ungarist (Estonian - elative)
- Olen kotoisin Unkarista (Finnish - elative)
- Mun lean eret Uŋgáras (Northern Saami - locative)
- Венгрий гыч yлам (Meadow Mari - postposition clarifies the role of "Hungary" and it remains in nominative)
- Magyarországról vagyok (Hungarian - delative)

I am going by bus.
- Ma lähen bussiga (Estonian - comitative)
- Mä menen bussilla (Finnish - adessive)
- Mun manan bussiin (Northern Saami - comitative)
- Автобус дене каем (Meadow Mari - postposition clarifies the role of "bus" and it remains in nominative)
- Busszal megyek (Hungarian - comitative)

What comes after winter?
- Mis tuleb peale talve? (Estonian - partitive and note use of preposition)
- Mikä tulee talven jälkeen? (Finnish - genitive)
- Mii boahtá dálvvi maŋŋá? (Northern Saami - genitive)
- Теле почеш мо толеш? (Meadow Mari - postposition clarifies the role of "winter" and it remains in nominative)
- Mi történik a tél után? (literally: "What happens after winter?") (Hungarian - postposition clarifies the role of "winter" and it remains in nominative)

There's an extra complication to using the postpositions meaning "with", "to" and "from" compared to what I've seen in Finnish.

I'm going with you.
- Menen sinun kanssasi. (Finnish - the personal pronouns are in genitive because of the postposition's governance of that case. The possessive suffix of the 2nd person singular is added to the postposition)
- Тый денет каем (Meadow Mari - the postposition does not change the pronoun unlike Finnish but in reference to the 1st or 2nd person singular pronoun, it will take on the possessive suffix corresponding to that pronoun. In this instance the postposition takes on the possessive suffix of the 2nd person singular just as in the Finnish example)

I'm going with him/her
- Mä menen hänen kanssaan. (Finnish - the personal pronouns are in genitive because of the postposition's governance of that case. The possessive suffix of the 3rd person singular is added to the postposition)
- Тудын дене каем. (Meadow Mari - the postposition does force the pronoun to be in genitive as in Finnish when the predicate is in plural or the 3rd person singular. However the postposition does not take on the corresponding possessive suffix unlike Finnish)

The cognates that I detected in the lesson and then verified were:

- лудаш "to read" [cf. lugema (Estonian); lukea (Finnish); logi "ten" (Northern Saami)]
- ме "we" [cf. me (Estonian, Finnish); mi (Hungarian); moai (dual) / mii (plural) (Northern Saami)]
- тe "you" (plural) [cf. te (Estonian, Finnish); ti (Hungarian); doai (dual) / dii (plural) (Northern Saami)]

***

UKRAINIAN

I completed Unit 5 of "Teach Yourself Ukrainian". The chapter's dialogues introduced the "negative" genitive, numerals over 10, reflexive verbs, and more on possession.

***

MISCELLANEA

Here's a new set of expressions. This one is for expressing relief be it genuinely positive or with a tinge of annoyance.

- Finally! / At last! (said either without sarcasm or with somewhat annoyed relief. E.g. "You've come, finally! It's about time!")

- Vihdoinkin! (Finnish)
- Végre! (Hungarian)
- Beidzot! (Latvian)
- Nareszcie! (Polish)
- Viimmat! (Northern Saami)
- Konečne! (Slovak)
- Нарeшті! (Ukrainian)

The runaway success of "Gangnam Style" made me do a little reading on Korean and the social commentary made in the music video. I even entertained the idea of dabbling in Korean later this year but I then dissuaded myself from doing it having already committed myself to enough target languages and getting rather turned off by what I read about the language. The typology doesn't seem to be inordinately exotic (it's rather like Mari with the agglutination and SOV plus moderate vowel harmony) but much of the phonology and morphophonemics seem impossible to learn to a satisfactory level without being able to work on them consistently and with fewer distractions, not to mention the extra work needed for absorbing honorifics, vocabulary with little to no clear link to anything that I've studied, and new scripts (Hangul and then Hanja later on). Korean seems like something that I could handle if it were one of two languages that I would study. As it is Korean would compete with Finnish, Hungarian and Ukrainian, not to mention some low level work on Northern Saami, Polish and Slovak, and dabbling in Meadow Mari.

_____



Edited by Chung on 03 September 2012 at 3:59am



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