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Chung at work / Chung pri práci

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Marikki
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 2759 days ago

130 posts - 80 votes 
Speaks: Finnish*, English, Spanish, Swedish
Studies: German

 
 Message 17 of 541
15 February 2011 at 8:09pm | IP Logged 
Hei Chung,

En pysty editoimaan edellistä tekstiän sillä tavalla kuin haluaisin (iPadin selaimessa ei ole vierityspalkkia
kirjoitusikkunassa) joten jatkan tarinaa tässä uudessa postissa. Haluan vielä sanoa muutaman asian:

Osaan suomen kielioppia sen verran kuin koulussa opetettiin, joten voit suhtautua varauksella
kommentteihini.

Jos haluat, että selvennän jotakin kirjoittamaani sano. En ole edes yrittänyt kirjoittaa yksinkertaista suomea.
Sano myös jos haluat kommentit vielä toistaiseksi mielummin englanniksi.

En osaa ottaa kantaa siihen, onko vuokaaviosi päättelyketju aukoton, osaamiseni ei riitä siihen. Minulla ei
kuitenkaan ole mitään huomautettavaa muihin yksittäisiin kohtiin ja esimerkkeihin, Kounotori ehti ensin :)

Edited by Marikki on 16 February 2011 at 12:56am



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4420 days ago

4232 posts - 4071 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 18 of 541
16 February 2011 at 7:45pm | IP Logged 
Tattis Marikki. Kuten kirjoitin aikaisemmin, vivahdetta on yllin kyllin suomessa. :-P



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4420 days ago

4232 posts - 4071 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 19 of 541
22 February 2011 at 11:56pm | IP Logged 
I've tweaked the sentences and flow-chart based on Kounotori's and Marikki's comments. Again I appreciate feedback from all of the native Finns here to make sure that I'm understanding the Finnish direct object correctly. I've included translations of the sentences to illustrate better the nuance and hence choice of using partitive or not per my understanding.

DIRECT OBJECTS THAT ARE PERSONAL PRONOUNS.

1) The personal pronoun is in partitive when it complements a negated action.

-En näe sinua. (I don't see you.)
-En rakasta sinua. (I don't love you.)
-En näe heitä. (I don't see them / some of them.)
-En näe sinua ja en kuule häntä. (I don't see you and I don't hear him/her.)
-Minun ei tarvitse kuula / kuuntella sinua. (I don't need to hear / listen to you.)
-Häntä ei leikata tänään. (He/she is not being operated on today. / He/she will not be operated on today.)
-Ei ole hyvä nähdä sinua / heitä. (It's not good to see you / them / some of them.)
-Älä opasta minua! / heitä! (Don't guide me! / them! / some of them!)
-En opasta heitä. (I don't guide them / some of them.)
-En opasta sinua. (I don't guide you.)

2) The personal pronoun is in partitive when it complements a verb that is irresultive or part of a process (i.e. the process is more important than completion or if the whole object is affected by the action or not.). Verbs dealing with emotions or protracted/involved action take partitive objects.

-Rakastan sinua. (I love you [sing. informal].)
-Rakastan teitä. (I love you [formal overall or plur. informal].)
-Rakastan sinua ja vihaan häntä. (I love you and hate him / her.)
-Minun pitää kuunnella sinua. (I need to listen to you.)
-Häntä leikataan tänään. (He / she is being operated on today. - i.e. we're emphasizing the operation itself rather than if it will be performed to completion)
-On kiva kunnella sinua. (It's nice to listen to you.)
-Kuuntele minua! (Listen to me!)
-Rakastan heitä. (I love them / some of them.)
-Rakastan häntä. (I love him / her)

3) The personal pronoun is in partitive when it refers to a group of unspecified quantity or when not all of the complement is affected. This rule most often applies to plural personal pronouns (e.g. "some of us", "many of you", "a few of them") since singular ones are defined specifically as 1 (however see the last example sentence).

-Näkevät meitä. (They see some of us.)
-Näkevät meitä ja kuulevat heitä. (They see some of us and hear some of them,)
-Minun täytyy opastaa heitä. (I have to guide some of them.)
-Heitä leikataan tänään. (Some of them are being operated on today. / Some of them will be operated on today.)
-On kiva nähdä heitä. (It's nice to see some of them.)
-Opasta meitä! (Guide some of us!)
-Hoidan heitä. (I take care of some of them.)
-Lieska poltti minua. (The flame burned part of me.)

4) Personal pronouns are in partitive when they are complements of simultaneous actions.

-Näkivät minua ja kuulivat sinua. (They saw me and heard you [at the same time].)
-Minun täytyy hoitaa sinua ja minun täytyy viedä häntä pois. (I have to take care of you and take him / her away [at the same time].)
-Häntä leikataan ja sinua hoidetaan. (He / she is being operated on and you are being cared for. / He / she will be operated on and you will be cared for [at the same time].)
-On hyvä nähdä sinua mutta on huono nähdä häntä. (It's good to see you but bad to see him / her [at the same time].)
-Hoida häntä ja opasta minua! (Take care of him / her and guide me [at the same time]!)
-Hoidan heitä ja opastan teitä. (I take care of them / some of them and guide you / some of you [at the same time].)
-Hoidan häntä ja opastan sinua. (I take care of him / her and guide you [at the same time].)

5) The personal pronoun is in accusative when it's the complement of an obligation construction involving "täytyä", "pitää" or "tulla" AND does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive.

-Minun täytyy hoitaa sinut. (I have to take care of you [sing. informal].)
-Minun pitää hoitaa heidät. (I have to take care of them / all of them.)

6) The personal pronoun is in accusative when it's the complement of a passive AND does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive.

-Hänet leikataan tänään. (He / she will be operated on today. (i.e. the operation will be completed))
-Opastettakoon hänet! (???) (Let him / her be guided [successfuly and/or to completion] by him / her!) (I'm unsure of the validity of this sentence)
-Heidät leikataan tänään. (They will be operated on today. (i.e. the operation will be completed))

7) The personal pronoun is in accusative when it's the complement of an impersonal sentence with an infinitive AND does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive.

-On kiva nähdä hänet / heidät. (It's nice to see him / her / them / all of them.)

8) The personal pronoun is in accusative when it's the complement of an imperative sentence AND does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive.

-Opasta / Opastakoot minut! (Guide me! // Let them guide me!)
-Hoida / Hoitakoon heidät! (Take care of them / all of them! // Let him / her take care of them / all of them!)

9) If none of the rules above apply, then the personal pronoun is still in accusative.

-Näen sinut / teidät. (I see you [sing. informal] / you [sing. formal or plur. general] / all of you.)

DIRECT OBJECTS THAT ARE NOT PERSONAL PRONOUNS.

1) The direct object is in partitive when it complements a negated action.

-En lue kirjaa / kirjoja. (I'm not reading a book / books // I won't read the book, etc.)
-En rakasta Outia. (I don't love Outi)
-En juo vettä. (I don't drink water. / I'm not drinking the water.)
-En syö munaa / munia ja en lue kirjaa / kirjoja. (I'm not eating an egg / eggs and I'm not reading a book / books. // I'm not eating the egg / eggs and I'm not reading the book / books. etc.)
-En lue kahta kirjaa. (I'm not reading two books. // I won't read two books.)
-Minun ei tarvitse lukea kirjaa / kirjoja.
-Outiaa ei leikata tänään. (Outi is not being operated on today. // Outi will not be operated on today.)
-Ei ole hyvä nähdä Outia / johtajia. (It's not good to see Outi / some managers / the managers)
-Älä lue kirjaa / kirjoja! (Don't read a book / books! // Don't read the book / books!)
-Älköön lukeko kirjaa / kirjoja! (Don't let him / her read a book / books! // Don't let him / her read the book / books!)
-En syö omenaa / omenia. (I'm not eating an apple / apples. // I'm not eating the apple / apples. // I won't eat an apple / apples. etc.)

2) The direct object is in partitive when it complements a verb that is irresultive or part of a process (i.e. the process is more important than completion or if the whole object is affected by the action or not.). Verbs dealing with emotions or protracted/involved action take partitive objects.

-Rakastan Outia. (I love Outi.)
-Rakastan tyttöjä. (I love girls / some of the girls)
-Kuuntelen radiota ja opiskelen suomea. (I'm listening to the radio and studying Finnish.)
-Opiskelen kolmea vieraa kieltä. (I'm studying three foreign languages.)
-Kolmea ihmistä leikataan nyt. (Three people are being operated on now. - i.e. we are emphasizing the process and don't know if their operations will be completed.)
-Minun pitää kuunnella radiota. (I'm supposed to listen / be listening to the radio.)
-Outia leikataan tänään. (Outi is being operated on today. - i.e. we are emphasizing the process and don't know if Outi's operation will be completed).
-On kiva kuunnella radiota. (It's nice to listen / be listening to the radio.)
-Kuuntele ystävääsi! (Listen to your friend!)
-Lue jotakin! (Read something! - i.e. just read, it doesn't matter if you understand or finish reading the content.)
-Kuunnelkoon radiota! (Let him / her listen to the radio!)
-Opiskelen vieraita kieliä. (I'm studying foreign languages / some foreign languages.)
-Opiskelen vieraa kieltä. (I'm studying a foreign language.)

3) The direct object is in partitive when it refers to a group of unspecified quantity, an uncountable object (e.g. a liquid), an abstract idea or when not all of the object is affected.

-Juomme olutta. (We're drinking beer / some beer.)
-Syön omenia ja juon teetä. (We're eating apples and drinking tea. // We're eating some apples and drinking some tea.)
-Minun täytyy juoda vettä. (I have to drink water / some water.)
-Viiniä juodaan tänään. (Wine / Some wine is being drunk today.)
-On kiva nähdä ystäviä. (It's nice to see friends / some friends.)
-Juo maitoa! (Drink milk! / some milk!)
-Ota karamelleja! (Take candies! / Take some candies!)
-Juokoot viiniä! (Let them drink wine! / some wine!)
-Syön appelsiineja. (I'm eating oranges / some oranges.)
-Syön jogurttia. (I'm eating yogurt / some yogurt.)

4) Direct objects are in partitive when they are complements of simultaneous actions.

-Kirjoitan kirjettä ja syön omenaa. (I'm writing a letter and eating an apple. // I'll write a letter and eat an apple. [at the same time])
-Kirjoitan kahta kirjettä ja syön puolta omenaa. (I'm writing two letters and eating half of an apple. // I'll write a letter and eat half of an apple. [at the same time])
-Minun täytyy hoitaa Outia ja minun täytyy viedä Timoa pois. (I have to take care of Outi and take Timo away. [at the same time])
-Outia leikataan ja hänen poikaystäväänsä hoidetaan. (Outi is being operated on and her boyfriend is being cared for. [at the same time])
-On hyvä nähdä Outia mutta on huono nähdä hänen poikaystäväänsä. (It's good to see Outi but bad to see her boyfriend. [at the same time])
-Hoida Outia ja ruoki koiraa! (Take care of Outi and feed the dog! [at the same time])
-Hoitakoon Outia ja ruokkikoon koiraa! (Let him / her take care of Outi and feed the dog! [at the same time])
-Hoidan tyttöjä ja ruokin koiriani. (I'm taking care of the girls and feeding my dogs. // I'm taking care of some girls and feeding my dogs. [at the same time])
-Hoidan tyttöä ja ruokin koirani. (I'm taking care of a / the girl and feeding my dog. [at the same time])

5) Any numeral other than 1 that modifies a direct object of a verb other than the 3rd person imperative will be declined as in nominative IF it does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive. In the 3rd person imperative this modifying numeral will be declined instead in the genitive singular (N.B. in any event the noun following this numeral is in partitive singular).

-Syön kolme omenaa. (I'm eating up three apples. / I'll eat up three apples.)
-Minun täytyy lukea neljä kirjaa. (I have to read four books [to completion])
-Kaksi lehteä luetaan. (Two newspapers will be read.)
-Oli hyvä lukea kaksi kirjaa tänä iltana. (It was nice to read two books (to completion) this evening.)
-Syö kaksi appelsiinia! (Eat two apples! - i.e. you better finish them off too!)
-Syökööt kahden appelsiinia! (Let them eat two oranges! [to completion]
-Näen kaksi lasta. (I / I will see two children.)

6) The direct object is in nominative when it's the complement of an obligation construction involving "täytyä", "pitää" or "tulla" AND does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive.

-Minun täytyy hoitaa Outi. (I have to take care of Outi (successfully or to completion))
-Minun täytyy syödä omenat. (I have to eat the apples [to completion])
-Minun täytyy syödä omena. (I have to eat an / the apple [to completion])

7) (?) With one exception (?), the complement of a passive construction is in nominative IF none of the criteria above for using the partitive applies. (?) However in the passive imperative construction, a complement that is singular is in genitive singular (?).

-Outi leikataan tänään. (Outi will be operated on today. [and the operation will be completed or successful])
-Opastettakoot Outin! (???) (Let Outi be operated on [successfully and/or to completion] by him / her!) (I'm unsure of the validity of this sentence)
-Lapset leikataan tänään. (The children / All of the children will be operated on today. [successfully and/or to completion])
-Lapsi leikataan tänään. (The child / A child will be operated on today. [successfully and/or to completion])

8) The direct object pronoun is in nominative when it's the complement of an impersonal sentence with an infinitive AND does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive.

-On kiva syödä omena. (It's nice to eat an / the apple [to completion])
-On kiva nähdä sinun ystävä / ystävät. (It's nice to see your friend / friends. [as a predefined (sub-)group of them])

9) The direct object is in nominative when it's the complement of an imperative sentence AND does not meet any of the criteria above for using the partitive.

-Opasta Outi! (Guide Outi! - and you better do it successfully and/or to completion)
-Opasta sinun ystävä / ystävät! (Guide your friend / friends! - and you not only better do it successfully and/or to completion but when I mean "friends" I mean that predefined (sub-)group of them, not a bunch of randomly-drawn friends)

10) If none of the rules above apply, then the direct object is in genitive singular when singular and nominative plural when plural.

-Näen pojan. (I see a / the boy)
-Opastakoon pojan! (Let him / her guide a / the boy! - and it had better be done successfully or to completion!)

-Näen pojat. (I see the boys)
-Opastakoon pojat! (Let him / her guide the boys! - and it had better be done successfully or to completion!)
2 persons have voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4420 days ago

4232 posts - 4071 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 20 of 541
06 March 2011 at 3:40am | IP Logged 
Any feedback?



GREGORG4000
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 2787 days ago

307 posts - 186 votes 
Speaks: English*, Finnish
Studies: Japanese, Korean, Amharic, French

 
 Message 21 of 541
06 March 2011 at 4:15am | IP Logged 
I'm pretty sure that passive imperative still uses nominative, and it seems so after searching for written examples of it, e.g. "Kaupan pidetty tavara menetettäköön." Also, I don't think that there's any -ttakoot ending, just a -ttakoon ending. It's been a while since I've actively studied Finnish grammar though, so I might be missing something.

Edited by GREGORG4000 on 06 March 2011 at 4:30am

1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4420 days ago

4232 posts - 4071 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 22 of 541
09 March 2011 at 3:25am | IP Logged 
OK, thanks Gregor. I'll keep my eyes open for more information about the passive imperative even though I don't expect to be using it too often in the near future.

I appreciate any other bits of feedback.



Marikki
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 2759 days ago

130 posts - 80 votes 
Speaks: Finnish*, English, Spanish, Swedish
Studies: German

 
 Message 23 of 541
30 April 2011 at 2:35pm | IP Logged 

Excellent work! I really had to contemplate many of your example sentences but finally had to admit they are correct..

Chung wrote:
-Opastettakoon hänet! (???) (Let him / her be guided [successfuly and/or to completion] by him / her!) (I'm unsure of the validity of this sentence)


Yes, this is a valid sentence.   

Chung wrote:
-Opastettakoot Outin! (???) (Let Outi be operated on [successfully and/or to completion] by him / her!) (I'm unsure of the validity of this sentence)


This is a tough one. I think Gregorg is right about passive imperative. "Opastakoot Outin" (active tense 3rd person plural) or "Opastakoon Outin" (active tense 3rd person singular) would be correct but not this. If meant to be a passive sentence it shoud be "Opastettakoon Outi".
             
Chung wrote:
-Syökööt kahden appelsiinia! (Let them eat two oranges! [to completion]


This shoud be "Syökööt kaksi appelsiinia."

"Syökööt kahden appelsiinia!" means something like "Let the two of them eat (some) orange together".    


********
********

I understand that this time your focus was on direct object but I cannot resist, here is a couple of other things I noticed:


Chung wrote:
-En näe sinua ja en kuule häntä. (I don't see you and I don't hear him/her.)


ja en = enkä
ja ei = eikä
ja eivät = eivätkä
etc.

My Finnish teacher was strict about this :) and honestly, I think "ja en" doesn't sound good.

Chung wrote:
-Opiskelen kolmea vieraa kieltä. (I'm studying three foreign languages.)


This was probably just a typo but

vieras kieli -> vierasta kieltä


Chung wrote:
-On hyvä nähdä Outia mutta on huono nähdä hänen poikaystäväänsä. (It's good to see Outi but bad to see her boyfriend. [at the same time])


This comment is about using the words "hyvä" and "huono" :

You could say "On hyvä nähdä Outia" " It is useful to see Outi" but I cannot imagine when one would say "On huono nähdä .."

"On mukavaa/hauska nähdä Outia, mutta ikävää/epämiellyttävää nähdä hänen poikaystäväänsä."   



Edited by Marikki on 30 April 2011 at 8:20pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4420 days ago

4232 posts - 4071 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 24 of 541
24 May 2011 at 7:07am | IP Logged 
Marikki wrote:

Excellent work! I really had to contemplate many of your example sentences but finally had to admit they are correct..

Chung wrote:
-Opastettakoon hänet! (???) (Let him / her be guided [successfuly and/or to completion] by him / her!) (I'm unsure of the validity of this sentence)


Yes, this is a valid sentence.   

Chung wrote:
-Opastettakoot Outin! (???) (Let Outi be operated on [successfully and/or to completion] by him / her!) (I'm unsure of the validity of this sentence)


This is a tough one. I think Gregorg is right about passive imperative. "Opastakoot Outin" (active tense 3rd person plural) or "Opastakoon Outin" (active tense 3rd person singular) would be correct but not this. If meant to be a passive sentence it shoud be "Opastettakoon Outi".
               
Chung wrote:
-Syökööt kahden appelsiinia! (Let them eat two oranges! [to completion]


This shoud be "Syökööt kaksi appelsiinia."

"Syökööt kahden appelsiinia!" means something like "Let the two of them eat (some) orange together".    


********
********

I understand that this time your focus was on direct object but I cannot resist, here is a couple of other things I noticed:


Chung wrote:
-En näe sinua ja en kuule häntä. (I don't see you and I don't hear him/her.)


ja en = enkä
ja ei = eikä
ja eivät = eivätkä
etc.

My Finnish teacher was strict about this :) and honestly, I think "ja en" doesn't sound good.

Chung wrote:
-Opiskelen kolmea vieraa kieltä. (I'm studying three foreign languages.)


This was probably just a typo but

vieras kieli -> vierasta kieltä


Chung wrote:
-On hyvä nähdä Outia mutta on huono nähdä hänen poikaystäväänsä. (It's good to see Outi but bad to see her boyfriend. [at the same time])


This comment is about using the words "hyvä" and "huono" :

You could say "On hyvä nähdä Outia" " It is useful to see Outi" but I cannot imagine when one would say "On huono nähdä .."

"On mukavaa/hauska nähdä Outia, mutta ikävää/epämiellyttävää nähdä hänen poikaystäväänsä."   



Kiitoksia paljon, Marikki. Pahoittelen viivästystä.



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