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pohaku
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5461 days ago
192 posts - 367 votes 
Speaks: English*, Persian
Studies: Arabic (classical), French, German, Mandarin, Japanese
| Message 17 of 30 21 May 2010 at 7:17pm | IP Logged |
I write a simple nastaliq, and can read old manuscripts in nastaliq, though that's something that I rarely need to do since we read modern edited versions of classics. My study partner is much more interested in calligraphy, and he's been working on writing shekasteh so that he can write faster.
If you're interested in nastaliq, there's a book called "Reading Nasta'liq" by Hanaway and Spooner that you might enjoy. Mazda Publishers, 1995.
1 person has voted this message useful
| PaulLambeth
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5183 days ago
244 posts - 315 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Icelandic, Hindi, Irish
| Message 18 of 30 21 May 2010 at 7:31pm | IP Logged |
datsunking1 wrote:
I've decided to go through a Teach Yourself course for 10 languages or so, just to understand the basics, and if I like it, I'll pursue the language further.
It would be great to know basic grammar, greetings, etc in a few other languages besides the ones that I am studying, just to broaden my understanding of linguistics.
Do I intend to master them? Absolutely not.
Would it be fun to learn a little about a bunch of languages? Absolutely :) I think I have close to 12 on my flash drive. |
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This sums up my desire for a fair amount of languages. The languages I've got listed here (on my language profile) are the ones I know I want to learn to a reasonably high level (but not with a cap). I also want a more linguistic understanding of many other languages, just as a hobby really. The way grammar works and languages have evolved, not just with regards to the languages I am studying, is becoming an interest of mine.
1 person has voted this message useful
| datsunking1
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5395 days ago
1014 posts - 1533 votes
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French
| Message 20 of 30 22 May 2010 at 1:47am | IP Logged |
PaulLambeth wrote:
datsunking1 wrote:
I've decided to go through a Teach Yourself course for 10 languages or so, just to understand the basics, and if I like it, I'll pursue the language further.
It would be great to know basic grammar, greetings, etc in a few other languages besides the ones that I am studying, just to broaden my understanding of linguistics.
Do I intend to master them? Absolutely not.
Would it be fun to learn a little about a bunch of languages? Absolutely :) I think I have close to 12 on my flash drive. |
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This sums up my desire for a fair amount of languages. The languages I've got listed here (on my language profile) are the ones I know I want to learn to a reasonably high level (but not with a cap). I also want a more linguistic understanding of many other languages, just as a hobby really. The way grammar works and languages have evolved, not just with regards to the languages I am studying, is becoming an interest of mine. |
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If you think about it, there is quite a lot covered in a Teach Yourself Course, like present, past and future tenses. :) More than enough to "get by" on a trip if you add some more vocabulary of your own :)
Edited by datsunking1 on 22 May 2010 at 1:48am
1 person has voted this message useful
| dolly
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5600 days ago
191 posts - 376 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Latin
| Message 21 of 30 22 May 2010 at 1:49am | IP Logged |
I used to be quite content with passive understanding, but I've changed my outlook. I want to attain fluency in all four language skills and I'm more devoted to my L2 than ever.
Edited by dolly on 01 July 2010 at 4:55am
1 person has voted this message useful
| vikramkr
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5879 days ago
248 posts - 326 votes
Speaks: English*, Portuguese
| Message 22 of 30 22 May 2010 at 2:01am | IP Logged |
datsunking1 wrote:
PaulLambeth wrote:
datsunking1 wrote:
I've decided to go through a Teach Yourself course for 10 languages or so, just to understand the basics, and if I like it, I'll pursue the language further.
It would be great to know basic grammar, greetings, etc in a few other languages besides the ones that I am studying, just to broaden my understanding of linguistics.
Do I intend to master them? Absolutely not.
Would it be fun to learn a little about a bunch of languages? Absolutely :) I think I have close to 12 on my flash drive. |
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This sums up my desire for a fair amount of languages. The languages I've got listed here (on my language profile) are the ones I know I want to learn to a reasonably high level (but not with a cap). I also want a more linguistic understanding of many other languages, just as a hobby really. The way grammar works and languages have evolved, not just with regards to the languages I am studying, is becoming an interest of mine. |
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If you think about it, there is quite a lot covered in a Teach Yourself Course, like present, past and future tenses. :) More than enough to "get by" on a trip if you add some more vocabulary of your own :) |
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Honestly, I don't think that completing 10 different TY courses will end up helping you that much, especially if you don't plan on maintaining most of the languages. There are more efficient ways of expanding your linguistic knowledge.
Edited by vikramkr on 22 May 2010 at 2:02am
1 person has voted this message useful
| Javi
Senior Member
Spain
Joined 5791 days ago
419 posts - 548 votes
Speaks: Spanish*
| Message 23 of 30 22 May 2010 at 2:44pm | IP Logged |
Iversen wrote:
There are definitely languages which I like to be able to read, but
not intend to learn to write or speak. But they are all related to at least one
language I know well - otherwise I would have to invest so much time in learning how to
read them that I just as well could learn to write them too. For instance I can to some
extent read Sardic and Romantsch, but I have not planned to learn to use them. This
also applies to Old French and Occitan, with the difference that I actually have
followed courses in them and understand them fairly well. But without Modern French and
Catalan to help my memory I would have problems. Latin is a good example of a language
which you have to learn properly to understand it, and if you dont' use it and have
learnt it only as a passive language then your skills just dissipate before your very
eyes if you don't read it on a regular basis. I have been through that, and when I
decided to relearn Latin I deliberately set myself the task of making it active,
because I figured that this would help me to keep it alive even though I don't have
time to read it daily.
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I suppose you're thinking of very related languages you're in contact with just
occasionally. In my view there's only so long you can be passively in contact with a
language, in both forms written and oral, without gaining some active command of it,
whether that's what you intended or not. That's why this whole notion of 'I'm gonna get
a just passive knowledge' is difficult to grasp for me. All the examples given so far
involve some kind of limitation in the exposure, such as no listening, no reading
(second generation immigrants), or just no much time spent on task. But if you don't
spend a lot of time or do skip either reading or listening, you are not going to get
good at the passive skills either.
2 persons have voted this message useful
| Lone_Wolf
Groupie
United States
Joined 5116 days ago
60 posts - 117 votes
Speaks: English*
| Message 24 of 30 01 July 2010 at 3:56am | IP Logged |
cmj wrote:
With all due respect Tracker, I agree with Iversen that if you want to have a good grasp (including retention) of ancient languages like Greek or Latin, it's best to fit in active practice as well, preferably quite a bit. In addition to improving your capacity to retain what you've learned, it forces you to confront some of the subtleties of grammar and vocabulary that you will probably only half understand, if not miss entirely, with only a passive knowledge of the language. In fact, there is a series of Ancient Greek composition books dating back to the beginning of the century which is based on the (to my mind very plausible) hypothesis that the large discrepancy between the Greek and Latin skills of students of the time, even taking into account the greater amount of time spent studying the latter, is that in Greek they only learned to read and never did composition exercises.
The point of acquiring at least some modicum of active knowledge of these languages is not in order to be able to use them to communicate (well, a few people do this, but it's rare), but simply because it significantly strengthens your passive knowledge by forcing you to pay attention to nuances that you generally only come to fully understand when attempting to communicate in a language. I've noticed myself that even doing simple translation exercises from English into Greek and Latin has substantially improved my understanding of difficult points of grammar, like the exceedingly complicated distinction between the subjunctive and the optative in Greek, which has in turn improved my understanding of the fine points of particular texts. I imagine if I could find someone who could correct original compositions, I would be able learn a great deal more.
If you only want to attain an intermediate level in the language, passive learning is enough, but I think if you want to reach the highest level of literary fluency you need to pass through an active phase as well. |
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Hi cmj,
I think what you are expressing here only applies to those whose target language is limited as far as reading and listening avenues and opportunities go. If reading and listening avenues and opportunities in one's target language are unlimited and one is guaranteed to always have a 'Fresh/New source of listening and reading, then I do not see the necessity in having to pursue an active aspect of her or his target language.
IMHO, a good example to me is Modern Standard Arabic where there are more than plenty of sources, avenues and opportunities to read and listen to it and always come across (and thus confront) those subtleties of grammar and vocabulary that you've mentioned here.
My very humble two cents.
Take Care All and Have Wonderful Day.
1 person has voted this message useful
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