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Finnish Language Grammar Thread

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Aquila123
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 Message 1 of 16
30 May 2010 at 6:54pm | IP Logged 
How to exactly make causative verbs in Finnish.

Several examples of causative Finnish verbs were exemplified in another thread, deried by one or more suffixes.

The question we discuss is the difference between the metods of derivation - are there any difference in meaning.

I refere to these examples you gave in a former rsponse:


heittää - heitätyttää (to throw - to make throw) Seems to be deried form heittä + tty + ttä + ä

juosta - juoksuttaa (to run - to make run) Seems to be from joukse + u + tta + a

tehdä - teettää (to do - to make do) Seems to be from teke + ttä + ä

(I listed the stems and suffixes in their fullest apophonical form for simplicity in my tentative interpretations)

As far as I know -u- is a passive/refexive suffix, -ttu- is the past passive participle and tta is the simple factitive/causative suffixe

I think I saw the -utu- suffixe also in your examples, but I could not find it back, but you have explained well about that suffixe in combination with a causative suffixe.

1 person has voted this message useful



chirel
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 Message 2 of 16
30 May 2010 at 8:54pm | IP Logged 
Aquila123 wrote:
How to exactly make causative verbs in Finnish.

Wow! Not a small goal. I'm not sure if anyone knows how exactly it is done. Many areas of Finnish grammar are
poorly studied. Based on the few courses I've been to, I can't give you a more accurate answer than I already did.

Aquila123 wrote:

heittää - heitätyttää (to throw - to make throw) Seems to be deried form heittä + tty + ttä + ä

juosta - juoksuttaa (to run - to make run) Seems to be from joukse + u + tta + a

tehdä - teettää (to do - to make do) Seems to be from teke + ttä + ä

I must say that you are good at recognizing sufficses and stems. Many natives can't do that at all. Most of us
don't even realize all those suffixes exist. They treat the derived forms as independent words with no connection
to each other. And then there are people like me, who enjoy finding stems and suffixes ;)


And everyone else studying Finnish: welcome to this thread, ask questions and challenge us into answering
them. I will do my best as I intend to teach Finnish as a second language as my profession one day (soon). I
might not have all the answers, let alone all the correct ones, but it will be a valuable learning experience also
for me. (And I hope others will join me in answering questions and discussing the details.)



GREGORG4000
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 Message 3 of 16
30 May 2010 at 10:02pm | IP Logged 
"heitättää" also looks like it works as "to make throw".

According to Wiktionary, "juoksettaa" means "to curdle", so "juoksuttaa" might be an irregular because "juoksettaa" is taken up already.

It looks like almost always it's the imperative form of the verb, plus -ttaa/-ttää.
(Or, I guess, the stem of the verb plus -ttaa/-ttää, then creating consonant graduation on the stem)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_factitive_ver bs
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_causative_ver bs

Edited by GREGORG4000 on 30 May 2010 at 10:06pm



chirel
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 Message 4 of 16
31 May 2010 at 8:50am | IP Logged 
"juoksuttaa" is not irregular.

In Finnish we have deverbal and denominal suffixes. This means that new words can be formed from verbs and
nouns. Some suffixes are only used with nouns and some only with verbs, but some can be used with both. Also
the new verb can be a verb or a noun depending on the suffix. Thus "juoksuttaa" can be thought to be derived
from the noun "juoksu" (a run) and "juoksettaa" is derived from the verb juosta (-> from stem juokse-).

I don't remember by heart, which form is the stem for this suffix, but if I find time I will try to look it up in my
notes.

Heitättää is literally " to make throw", but it has aquired a meaning "feeling dizzy" and like other verbs about
emotions and feelings the structure uses partitive -> Minua heitättää. (I feel dizzy.)



Aquila123
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 Message 5 of 16
31 May 2010 at 12:20pm | IP Logged 
OK

THen the -u- is a suffix making a verbal noun from the verb

The suffixe -tta has a double meaning: It can denote making something - from a noub.

or Making someone do something - from a verb,

With "juoksutta" the logik then is - making someone's act of run(ing.

-----------------------------------------------

But the -u- can also be a suffixe making a reflexive verb

then the stem juoksu will mean "run oneself", but making an itransitive verb reflexive does not change the meaning, since an intransitie verb allready is logically an intrisic reflexive verb in most cases.

So run oneelf = just the same as the verb "run"

In that case juosutta is not logically different from juoksetta in the first place, but as mentioned juoksetta has got a special meaning.

-------------------------------------------------------

Well, this was an attempt to give some philosophical thoughts on a deeper level, just for fun.

Edited by Aquila123 on 31 May 2010 at 12:29pm



Aquila123
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 Message 6 of 16
31 May 2010 at 12:54pm | IP Logged 
The suffixe -u- is used in many verbs to denote passive meaning or reflexie meaning and it is often combined with tta, before or after or both making -utta-, -ttu- or uttu

As far as I know many of these are real words figuring in Finnish dictionaries, but could all be derived from a basic verb, examples with the verb näkyä- to see:

näke = to see¨(infinitie nähdä)

näke + ttä = näettä - to make someone see (infinitie näettää)

näke + y = näky - to be seen, to be visible, to seem (infinitie näkyä)

näky + ttä = näyttä - to nake something be seen, to show (infinitive näyttää)

näyttä + y = näytty - to show oneself? (infinitie näyttyä)



Thatzright
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 Message 7 of 16
31 May 2010 at 1:52pm | IP Logged 
Näke, näettä, näky, näyttä and näytty are not words, neither is näettää (although this is an interesting proposition and would make sense actually : D It's just that I've never heard it). 'To show oneself' would be näyttäytyä or näyttää itsensä, the rest of the suggestion sentences you have posted would most likely be expressed using other verbs in addition to derivations from the verb 'näkyä' or others like it. For exaple "To make someone see" would be "laittaa näkemään" or "saada näkemään" and "To be visible" "olla näkyvissä".

EDIT: Well, 'näky' is a noun meaning a vision or something like that, but it's not a conjugation of a verb or anything.

Edited by Thatzright on 31 May 2010 at 1:52pm



chirel
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 Message 8 of 16
31 May 2010 at 2:45pm | IP Logged 
You can't make too literal translations and the logic isn't the same with all the verbs with same suffixes. Words are
constantly being formed by analogy without all the seeming forms inbetween. So you can take away suffixes
without having a shorter word. Words also aquire new meanings and might lose semantic contact with other words
of the same "group" or with the same stem. In Finnish words can be derived in either direction 1. stem+suffix or
word-suffix. It is often difficult to say which way the derivation happened.

It is of course a good exercise (and fun too) to ponder on the meaning of each individual suffix and stem, but just
don't loose sight of the whole picture. Sometimes you just have to memorize words and forget about suffixes.

And with that said, I'd say juoksutta- is more like "make someone do running".
I would say, that there is no reflexive suffix -u- for the verb juosta. At least not in that position. Juoksuttaa is
denominal verb and the stem is juoksu, which is a noun.



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