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German articles- dilemma
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Derian
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Message 9 of 19

01 June 2010 at 7:14pm | IP Logged

OlafP wrote:

An article in front of the surname is often used with celebrities of the highest rank. I don't mean pop stars or any kind of starlets, but people who are thought to have achieved something extraordinary in their art, like "die Dietrich" (Marlene Dietrich), "die Garbo" (Greta Garbo) and so on.

I think it has a function of stating that it is "the one", "the one that we both know", so it should be obvious who is being talked about.
i.e. die Julia (das wir beide kennen), die Garbo (that everybody know).

So it pretty much works as a typical definite article.
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Iversen
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Message 10 of 19

14 June 2010 at 12:25am | IP Logged

Not quite, because you don't have to refer to the entity behind the noun first - you simply assume that a few actors or singers have assumed an almost godlike status where everyone should know and revere them. But if I really know a person then the last name is enough. Does anybody write "der Einstein", and why not?

The article with a first name is infinitely more democratical, because it can be used about anybody - provided that you use the expression at all, that is...

And leaving constructions with personal names aside: if you write "Die Kanzlerin" the expression at least indicates why the person should be known to you, and because there only can be one Kanzlerin at any one time the article is justified even without a previous reference.

Edited by Iversen on 14 June 2010 at 12:37am
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OlafP
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Message 11 of 19

14 June 2010 at 1:43am | IP Logged

Iversen wrote:

But if I really know a person then the last name is enough. Does anybody write "der Einstein", and why not?

Just to make one thing clear: mirab3lla asked why articles with names occur sometimes, and this is exactly what I explained. I didn't express my own opinion in any way. With respect to surnames my opinion is the same as yours, but this doesn't really matter in the context of this thread. The simple fact is that you instantly know more about a person when you hear them using these articles.
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Heart of Oak
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Message 12 of 19

10 July 2010 at 1:22pm | IP Logged

OlafP wrote:

Iversen wrote:

But if I really know a person then the last name is
enough. Does anybody write "der Einstein", and why not?

Just to make one thing clear: mirab3lla asked why articles with names occur sometimes,
and this is exactly what I explained. I didn't express my own opinion in any way. With
respect to surnames my opinion is the same as yours, but this doesn't really matter in
the context of this thread. The simple fact is that you instantly know more about a
person when you hear them using these articles.

I am a complete beginner in German, but this post has intrigued me.

Are we saying that irrespective of personal opinion, that this is a widely used custom?
Obviously at the point I am at in my development, I am trying to do things 'right'.
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Pyx
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Message 13 of 19

10 July 2010 at 2:20pm | IP Logged

Heart of Oak wrote:

Are we saying that irrespective of personal opinion, that this is a widely used custom?

yes
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Reisender
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Message 14 of 19

13 July 2010 at 3:52pm | IP Logged

masmavi wrote:

In the South it is required, but I think even people as far North as Cologne or Saxony use it. Virtually everybody speaks that way, if you don't you sound unnatural and snobbish. Even most Northern German people that move South start to speak that way after some time. But nobody uses it in writing of course, it is a only a thing of the spoken language.

I can confirm this. I was born in the northern parts of Germany and lived in the south for a few years before i moved to Italy. I can't help but speaking the way you described. It's like a mind disease, it's horrible!

Edited by Reisender on 13 July 2010 at 3:53pm
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mirab3lla
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Message 15 of 19

01 September 2010 at 6:09pm | IP Logged

I know that I'm kind of not doing the right thing by posting here again, but it concerns the same problem and I would like some help, for one more time...

I have noticed the same tendency in spoken Portuguese, while I was watching a Portuguese soap opera (Falo com a Julia). Is the "a" article here used with the same purpose as in German (where it actually doesn't have a purpose at all) or have I just misunderstood?

I must confess that I only have minimal knowledge of Portuguese, therefore, having made a listening error is also possible.
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Arekkusu
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Message 16 of 19

01 September 2010 at 6:23pm | IP Logged

LangOfChildren wrote:

Putting definite articles before names like Julia is one of the things I really can't
stand seeing others do.
The thing is, this is usually done when speaking to children as it has some sort of
diminutive to it, but if you ask me, it sounds totally stupid when grown-ups use it in
their usual everyday conversations.
I had the impression that this was only done in the southern parts of Germany, but now
it is slowly taking over the whole country.

Please, do not put definite articles in front of such names. It is not necessary.
It has no grammatical relevance nor does it help conveying anything else.

As I said, it has to do with where you grew up. For some it is normal but my personal
oppinion is that it sounds dumb.

Hope this helps.

I'm really surprised a native speaker would say that. I spent a month in Germany in 1991 and I was pretty fluent; I stayed around Düsseldorf and I would hear this all the time, from young and old. I never noticed any kind of stigma to it.

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