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Background radio - Helpful or Fantasy? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5078 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes  Studies: Italian | Message 25 of 36 24 July 2010 at 2:31am | IP Logged | ||
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Benny, I'm not saying that passive listening alone will get a person to fluency!
(One can debate the exact degree to which language learning is passive; but my real issue is with your idea that passive listening could actually be harmful.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5429 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 26 of 36 24 July 2010 at 2:46am | IP Logged | ||
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Glad to hear it, but I've met people who swear so much by its effectiveness, that other approaches (like study and practise) get pushed aside. That's what worries me.
Putting aside the hard-to-prove speculation that it would make you filter out the target language, I'd say it can be "harmful" simply psychologically. People will do their 4 hours of language "work" per day and feel they don't need to do anything else. People are lazy. It's unfortunate but it's true. Anything that gets someone out of work will always be welcome. Any scientific "proofs" of its effectiveness are just encouraging people to focus on this magic pill to fluency. I worry about the unlikely possibility that it genuinely does have some vague minor improvement because if it's proven true then people will overdo it and put less work into what actually does work. I'm not saying this is something you or anyone in this forum thinks, I'm just going by people I've met who have tried to speak the language and felt frustrated and confused at all the "time" they put into it not helping. If passive learning is 5% of someone's investment in a language then it will likely do no harm and perhaps augment active learning in some ways. If it's 95% of the investment then it's harmful because the learner is slowing himself down by thinking he is doing something productive. Background radio will help someone get into the mood of immersion, but to improve their actual level there must be either focus or mind-numbingly-boring repetition. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| aarontp Groupie United States Joined 5063 days ago 94 posts - 139 votes | Message 27 of 36 24 July 2010 at 3:47am | IP Logged | ||
I hate to go off topic, but could you recommend any? I'm always looking for foreign music, and I always waste too much time with futile searches on youtube. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5352 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 28 of 36 24 July 2010 at 4:03am | IP Logged | ||
I've had similar experiences as liddytime in Russian, Spanish and German so far, and would like to argue a place for background music in a language learner's day, not as a replacement for any active study, but as a fun complement to a well-rounded study programme. Here are 5 small ways in which background music has personally helped me whilst learning a language: 1. Listening passively to music really helps to get me motivated and pumped before any activity, especially language learning. And I reckon if I'm going to do this anyway, and perhaps even go for a run with my iPod later on that day too, then why not make it in my target language. If anything, I feel happier in the knowledge that I share some musical experiences, a kind of connection, with other Russians. It also helps feed my fantasy that I'm really actually Russian for that moment and get me into a good general mindset around study. 2. This connection or shared cultural experience also comes in useful later on. For example, although my Russian absolutely sucked on holiday last year, the ton of music I listened to in the background beforehand really helped me to integrate with a variety of Russians during the trip, both young and old. For example, club nights were so much more fun when I was able to recognise the latest tunes and sing and dance along with my new-found comrades to most of the choruses. It helped us bond. It also came in handy when I was able to sing some classic cartoon themes to entertain my girlfriend's niece and family. In this way, I've personally found that there's also a social factor involved that can sometimes help encourage more input and conversation with native speakers afterwards. 3. Music helps prepare my ears and brain for the studies ahead, and serves a little bit like a fun warm up before exercise as well as an easy cool down at the end of the day. I'm a great believer in the power of priming here, as I've read lots of studies over the years that show how passively listening to words beforehand increases our perceptual reaction time in active tasks shortly afterwards. You may have even watched people like Derren Brown on the TV in the past, or other practitioners of subliminal persuasion and NLP, and seen for yourself how effective priming can be. So yeah, I'm not really burning any great language calories here (no arguments there), but I reckon a little bit of background priming eases the transition into and out of real study, which makes the whole learning experience a little more comfotable. 4. By playing a handful of songs that I enjoy in my target language each day, I've learnt to associate these feelings of happiness and excitement with the target language too, which makes me want to continue and do more (which can't be a bad thing really). In addition to this, I find the combination of melody, quick-fire emotions, choruses I actually enjoy repeating and singing along to without going too crazy, and the general rhyme and rhythm, really help stick certain phrases in my head and keep them there. I find the memories that particularly stick the longest tend to be accompanied by moments of relatively intense emotion. I often easily find this same intensity in music (especially the chorus), which along with plenty of light-hearted repetition, is probably why I end up singing so many snippets of choruses in foreign languages randomly in the shower years later. ;) 5. Although it's of course no substitute for active listening or studies (and Benny's very right to point this out), I know from experience that it's still possible to pick up quite a few little bits and pieces along the way, especially over a longer period of time and at a more advanced level. It's far from efficient, and more like drops in an ocean, rather than cupfuls, but it all adds up in the long run. I find it's ideal to fill in some of the gaps between study where I don't have time to focus actively for more than a stolen second or two and just randomly here and there. Only today, for example, I was doing some listening and reading and recognised the phrase "я боюсь, что..." (I'm afraid that...), which I'd heard several times over in a song by Инфинити a year ago in the phrase "Я не боюсь найти тебя!", I'm not afraid to find you). This made me smile, as it's ages since I listened to this song, and this is just one of many similar experiences I can remember where picking up a word or two whilst listening to background music has proved useful at a later stage. Edited by Teango on 24 July 2010 at 4:22am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6471 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 29 of 36 24 July 2010 at 10:13am | IP Logged | ||
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Benny, your point is well taken and I understand what you are saying. I agree with you. It's no wonder you think like that. People are lazy and there are a lot of conman who take advantage of this.
You are right warning about those dangers. I exactly thought the same a few years ago and other language learners I know too. Then I began to read and listen language teachers, even in this forum, who claim that passive listening like background music is very useful in your language learning process. After using this background language noise, some of us discovered that it was something very useful. For example, I can read Russian and having French as a background music or the other way around. I think we must keep in mind something. The issue isn't that we use this background as the main method, the issue is that this is complementary and not the main method. It cannot substitute hard work. In fact, some people gravitate towards this because they feel so much passion about their target language (or languages) that it becomes an obsession and they listen their languages all day, even when they are sleeping. I think PASSION is the key word and passive listening and hard work are side-effects. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5429 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 30 of 36 24 July 2010 at 10:23am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks slucido/Teango,
I appreciate that most people here will be using it efficiently. Music especially has some potential due to the fact that it will be repeated so often. Having said that, the only way I have ever learned lyrics in foreign languages myself has been to focus on them - even if just once. It's likely that people here are more talented at splitting their attention than I am. It does have lots of potential to increase sense of immersion and widen appreciation for accents and musicality of languages, however I will advise against it at a useful means to learn a language since I write to a lot of beginner learners who are easy to influence and would love a quick-fix. If anyone recommends passive listening without a disclaimer that it has to be a small piece of the puzzle then they don't know how the people who read the advice are reacting. I suppose if you are giving this advice to experienced language learners there is no potential for danger since they will use it wisely ;) Edited by irishpolyglot on 24 July 2010 at 10:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6471 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 31 of 36 24 July 2010 at 11:42am | IP Logged | ||
You are right. Your point is well taken. The problem is that we have our mind filters and we read or understand what we wish to be truth. It doesn't matter if we read disclaimers. However, we find this problem with every method. People will interpret that the next method is a shortcut, a miracle, easy, fast and so on. This is a human sin. This is wishful thinking. The only shortcut that I know is passion. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5429 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 32 of 36 24 July 2010 at 11:45am | IP Logged | ||
Agreed ;) Edited by irishpolyglot on 24 July 2010 at 11:46am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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