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| victoraero Newbie Brazil Joined 5327 days ago 32 posts - 33 votes Speaks: Portuguese* Studies: English, Italian, Norwegian | Message 1 of 8 10 September 2010 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hello guys, im studying arabic grammar with the book "A new Arabic grammar" and got a
small question: Theres a exemple here بَيْتُ مُحَمََّدٍ الكَبِيرِ (the house of the great Muhammad) بَيْتُ مُحَمََّدٍ الكَبِيرُ (Muhammad's great house) So, only by changing a kasra for a damma the phrase is completely different? And if I take out all the fathas,dammas and kasras, how can I know which one I'm reading? Context only? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| CaucusWolf Senior Member United States Joined 5053 days ago 191 posts - 234 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Arabic (Written), Japanese | Message 2 of 8 10 September 2010 at 10:57pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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قال انا البيت الكبير لمحمد (I would use"بيت كبير محمد" to describe a big, large, great or important house belonging to Muhammad.) Hope this helps. سلام عليكم Edited by CaucusWolf on 11 September 2010 at 1:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5101 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 3 of 8 11 September 2010 at 1:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Your example is taught in pretty much every grammar book, but doesn't occur that frequently in real life texts. And if it does, you can usually tell the meaning from the context. You're more likely to find a non-Idafa construction in which the adjective is added to the noun that it belongs to and the owner is indicated with the preposition li. E.g., you'd write (البَيْتُ الكَبِيِْرُ لِمُحَمَّدٍ) al-baytu l-kabeeru li-Muhammadin (=Muhammad's big house). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| CaucusWolf Senior Member United States Joined 5053 days ago 191 posts - 234 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Arabic (Written), Japanese | Message 4 of 8 11 September 2010 at 1:59am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Edited by CaucusWolf on 11 September 2010 at 3:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| aldous Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5023 days ago 73 posts - 174 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 5 of 8 14 September 2010 at 6:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, by changing the kasra to a damma, it's completely different. The point the book is making is how an adjective modifies a noun that is part of an idafa construction. Normally adjectives follow the nouns they modify, but that obviously can't happen in an idafa, so the adjective has to come after the whole construction. That's the case regardless of which term it's modifying. Adjectives agree with their nouns for case, number, gender, and definiteness. In the example you cited, both nouns are singular, masculine, and definite. The only difference is that house is nominative and Muhammad is genitive. So if the adjective is nominative it must be modifying house, and if it's genitive it must be modifying Muhammad. If you take out all the short vowel signs (fathas, kasras, and dammas) then you have to rely on other clues. If the two terms of the idafa are different genders or numbers, then it's easy. In a case like the example sentence, the only way to tell which is meant is by context. While the short vowels are almost never printed, an exception is made when the sense would be ambiguous without it, as in your example. This business about how it's more natural to express personal possession with the preposition li is beside the point. Idafa constructions modified by adjectives do occur, and a learner has to learn how that works. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5101 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 6 of 8 14 September 2010 at 11:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I beg to differ. Of course, there's no way around learning how Idafas work, but students should also be aware of the possibility of constructions with li both to form and recognize them. Arabic is already complicated enough as it is. There's no point in having students worry about forms that are theoretically possible, but are rarely found in modern texts, let alone spoken Arabic. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| aldous Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5023 days ago 73 posts - 174 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 7 of 8 14 September 2010 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Victoaero is working through an introductory grammar book, so he isn't going to be introduced to all the elements of Arabic grammar at once. I'm sure he will become aware of the li construction when he comes to that lesson. In the lesson he's in, he's learning about idafas and adjectives.
I don't understand what you mean. An idafa construction with a modifying adjective is really common in Arabic (at least in MSA; I don't know about the dialects). I just visited the BBC Arabic website and the headline of the top story reads, عباس ونتنياهو يعقدان جلسة مفاوضات ثانية (Abbas and Netanhayu hold a second session of talks). The fourth and fifth words in the sentence, jalsat mufāwaḍāt, form an idafa, "session of talks". The last word, thānia, "second", modifies one of the terms in the idafa. Just by sight it could be either term, because both terms would take a feminine singular adjective. Common sense tells you, though, that it must be "second session of talks" and not "session of second talks". The example in the grammar book might sound unnatural, but it's a good example because it forces the student to look at what's happening grammatically. In the real world you rely a lot on context and common sense to tell which noun the adjective is modifying, but if a book is teaching you grammar, then it should make you see the grammatical principles. [EDIT: Originally I also included this sentence in the above post: "If the short vowels were written, you could also tell from the fact that both jalsatan and thāniatan are indefinite. But that sort of thing is never spelled out." But a few minutes later I remembered that's incorrect, so I removed it.] Edited by aldous on 14 September 2010 at 6:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5101 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 8 of 8 14 September 2010 at 7:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I wasn't referring to Idafas in general, but to the specific example that the OP mentioned, which is theoretically possible, but not really an issue, because readers can usually tell from the context which noun the adjective modifies.
I'd have picked a different example, but then again I'm not a textbook author and in the end it doesn't really matter. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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