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Arekkusu’s TAC 2012 Team ne nur | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5162 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 321 of 407 27 April 2012 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hiiro Yui, it's great to see you are working so hard. With this attitude, there is no doubt you will be able to improve even further.
Sorry I creeped you out with the African reference. For the record, I lived in Africa for a short while as a teenager, so I wasn't just making it up. But I was obviously off. While there are subtle African-American notes in your accent (tr, nasality, intonation, t's becoming glottal stops, etc.), no, I can’t pinpoint where your accent is from. To do that, I'd need exposure to various American accents, which I simply don’t have. Reading your descriptions of sounds, I initially wondered if your Japanese accent might not be more attributable to the conditions you imposed on yourself than to first language interference, but after hearing your English recording, I can hear how your t tends to have a bit of an s sound after it, such as in "to", and we can hear it in your Japanese as well. If the central part of your tongue was slightly curled downwards, I think you wouldn't touch the alveolar ridge where the s part is coming from. I get the impression you rely on descriptions more than on what you hear. Play around with sounds a bit until they sound the way you know they should. Descriptions can be a good starting guide, but they are rarely precise enough. If I have to describe a sound, I say it and try to feel exactly what I'm doing by moving the sound around a bit to determine at what point the sound no longer sounds right. I recommend you concentrate on controlling and feeling where the sounds are -- and what they're supposed to sound like -- rather than rely on descriptions. You're past descriptions. Feel the force, Lu... hmm, Yui ;) After listening to your new video, I did notice that sometimes, you don't follow what the announcer says, but rather what you have trained yourself to say (eg. kiji wo nosemashita, and right after, to iu mono de). There is so much vocabulary and it goes at such speed that I couldn't parse the pitch in your first video, but now that you broke it up, it's a bit more obvious. In both these cases, I think there is an important stress (on an accented mora) that makes the following phrase accentless. It’s either accentless or it's much lower in pitch. You bring nosemashita and to iu mono de to the height of the previous phrase when it actually goes way down. From what I can hear from your computer playback, these phrases sound unaccented, but they might just go really low and come up only subtly until shi and (mo)no. (I'll ask a friend.) Since newcasters speak with surgical precision, there tends to be less amplitude between lower and higher morae. You say you try to follow the dictionary rather than the newscaster, but seeing as they study with such rigor, chances are newscasters are right. Either there are variants or there is something else guiding their choice. As for shi and hi, the distinction is very subtle, but I really think you should work on those sounds as a priority. I think your si should be pronounced with a part of the tongue that is further back (meaning the placement may be right, but not the point of friction). Once you have that sound, hi is almost the same but with less friction. "ryo" sounded laborious in one spot too. Sorry this isn't very exhaustive. I recommend once more that you allow comments on your videos, even if that means deleting potentially unrelated posts. Japanese people may not be able to explain pitch very well, but they sure know when it sounds off. And what if someone who actually knows a lot about newscaster Japanese actually comes and helps you? Can you afford to miss that chance? You worked hard to make these videos -- give yourself that chance. I'm not sure why my friend said "日本語が上手ですね" -- it might have been an inside joke because we talked about that before (as you said, it’s just a superficial and almost automated greeting). It's also possible she went right into her Japanese habits and didn't realize what she said. She might also have reused the words I used in my email. Just ignore it; it's meaningless. It doesn't exactly sound like you've been avoiding speaking. You mention Skype. You obviously practiced these videos a fair bit. Perhaps you've been avoiding normal speech, but not newscaster Japanese. Also, from your videos, you often stop mid-sentence and start over again, as I suggested in the self-talk exercise (I’m not implying you are doing because of me; I suppose you are doing it instinctively). In other words, I question your claim that you are building new habits without oral practice. You aren't using self-talk because the type of language you are practising is different, but you are obviously practising it, or you wouldn't be acquiring new habits. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| atama warui Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 4482 days ago 594 posts - 985 votes Speaks: German*, English, Japanese | Message 322 of 407 30 April 2012 at 2:27am | IP Logged | ||
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This has been an interesting log so far. We do have some things in common. The preference for audio, the drive to speak as much as possible as early as possible, we both do self-talk (albeit differently).
I'll take your advice to watch more ドラマ and アニメ. Due to various factors, I don't have that opportunity to voice chat with Japanese people often (I only meet my girlfriend 6 times this month, and that'll be it, unless something comes up), as my home town is virtually Japan-free. Looking forward to read more from you. お互いに頑張りましょう！ 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5162 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 323 of 407 01 May 2012 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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The Global TV show on hyperpolyglots is now advertized on the show's website:
16x9 The show will be aired nationally, this Saturday, May 5th, at 7 pm. Edited by Arekkusu on 01 May 2012 at 4:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Luai_lashire Diglot Senior Member United States luai-lashire.deviant Joined 5609 days ago 384 posts - 560 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto Studies: Japanese, French | Message 324 of 407 03 May 2012 at 1:39am | IP Logged | ||
Oh my! I'm flattered, but I have to say I probably won't be doing it any time soon. I tried a while back with Esperanto, and I just got super nervous in front of the camera and started stuttering and whispering. :/ Also, I feel compelled to mention that my accent isn't terribly good right now because I've been in a classroom with terrible speakers for a whole school year, and I've been picking up their pronunciation errors despite my best efforts not to. :( I think after a nice cleansing period full of real native input, it should be back up to a good level. I have noticed though, I seem to have a lot of trouble with certain t sounds. I haven't figured out yet what the pattern is, but there seem to be certain sound combinations that provoke me to produce a much more American English sounding t. When I figure it out, I will be sure to come here for advice. ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Hiiro Yui Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4498 days ago 111 posts - 126 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese | Message 325 of 407 03 May 2012 at 3:08am | IP Logged | ||
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That's a shame, Luai lashire.
Until Arekkusu pointed it out, I thought my Japanese t's were excellent. I've been working on it for the past couple days and I think I made progress. Unfortunately, it also means I have to change my ch's, n's, z's and j's. I'm gonna post another video soon. If you post something, maybe Arekkusu can help you identify your trouble areas, too. Actually, the real reason I want you to post something is I think there are far too few videos of people trying to attain great Japanese pronunciation, and I need pointers from people that have the skill to actually achieve it. I just don't have the ear it takes to be a good mimic. I need detailed, visual desciptions along with audio. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5628 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 326 of 407 03 May 2012 at 7:54am | IP Logged | ||
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Arekkusu, I have watched two videos of the hyperpolyglot discussion on Keith's website.
Which one of these men is you? I can recognize Steve and Keith! :) Fasulye 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5162 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 327 of 407 03 May 2012 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | ||
Hi Fasulye! I'm in the middle, next to Keith! I'm not actually talking very much in these excerpts. Edited by Arekkusu on 03 May 2012 at 3:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5162 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 328 of 407 04 May 2012 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm really glad my advice turned out to be useful. The other day, I had to repeat the word "kanri" (as part of a longer compound) several times before my partner could say I had it right. I have to admit that the placement of N in syllable-final position sometimes causes me a bit of trouble. Anyway, turned out my partner found the sound acceptable when I placed my tongue to say an l and nasalized it, then removing my tongue to make the r/l sound. Here is an interesting paper on the acquisition of pitch through shadowing. However, it can only suggest that the accuracy of pitch increases DURING shadowing, not in the long term. Edited by Arekkusu on 04 May 2012 at 9:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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