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Arekkusu’s TAC 2012 Team ne nur

 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
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Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 4469 days ago

3971 posts - 7746 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 65 of 407
30 December 2010 at 3:11am | IP Logged 
Tangorin.com is an online dictionary that allows you to save searches and output them as decks.

I appreciate the offer for the deck, but I think I just had a better idea. I'm going to take a simple jouyou
deck and add to it, including -- an important part for me -- pitch accent of all example words.

EDIT: Ok, I gave this a try. So far, I took a plain jouyou deck (I think it's only got 1945 cards, but that's a
pretty good start anyway), and for each deck, I added a link to a page that shows stroke order
(http://tangorin.com/kanji/公) and another that shows pitch (http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-
8&p=%E3%81%BC%E3%81%8F&dtype=0&dname=0ss&stype=0&pagenum=1&i ndex=118010700000). The
first link also leads to compounds, but without pitch. Not sure what my next step will be, but it's a start.

Edited by Arekkusu on 30 December 2010 at 4:43am

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Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 4469 days ago

3971 posts - 7746 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 66 of 407
03 January 2011 at 8:56pm | IP Logged 
Been spending the last few days reading Kodansha's Learner's Dictionary, organizing and learning Anki
decks, and reading books. As I encounter new words, I look them up in Tangorin.com, where they are
inserted into a vocab list, later used to generate anki decks.

Met my language partner. Probably the time I've spoken with the most ease yet.
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Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 4469 days ago

3971 posts - 7746 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 67 of 407
31 January 2011 at 8:15pm | IP Logged 
Japanese Pitch

Met my language partner this weekend; hadn't met her in 3 weeks.

Clearly the best meeting thus far in terms of pronunciation for me. Even my partner remarked a noticeable difference lately. When I say pronunciation, I'm specifically refering to pitch, since Japanese sounds per se never really posed a problem. I'm now able to produce or read entire sentences with accurate pitch. (Not all the time, of course, but getting there.)

When I addressed the issue of pitch on this and other forums, almost all posters claimed that pitch wasn't important, or that you should just pick it up by listening to native speakers. I must say that I am increasingly convinced they were wrong. I used to think so by instinct; now I'm experiencing it first hand.

There is no way I would have made such quick progress with pitch had I not been increasingly intimate with the system as a whole. I know because when I didn't understand the system, I wasn't making any progress. There is also no way I could have understood (and slowly internalized) this intricate system just by listening. There's still lots of work to be done, but I feel very motivated by the recent improvements.

Moreover, when testing my recollection of pitch on individual words (especially verbs), I find that my instinct is increasingly accurate. I've been relearning the pitch of most common verbs. Verbs tend to occupy a pretty large part of all sentences, compared to nouns that often only take one or two syllables.

***

Two things that I realized at this meeting and which particularly struck me:

1) the morpheme -jin added after place names is a -2 morpheme: niHONJIn, kaNADAJIn, aMERIKAJIn, doITSUJIn, etc. On the other hand, -go is a 0 morpheme.

2) -reru, -rareru, -seru, -saseru endings are all -2/0, meaning that they will have a downfall on the E before -ru when the verb has pitch, or will have no effect on verbs without pitch: MIru>miSEru and YOmu>yoMEru, but suru>saseru (realized suRU and saSERU). However, if -te is added, its pitch pattern prevails (eg. MIsete).

Edited by Arekkusu on 01 February 2011 at 4:13pm

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g-bod
Diglot
Senior Member
United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5070 days ago

1485 posts - 2002 votes 
Speaks: English*, Japanese
Studies: French, German

 
 Message 68 of 407
31 January 2011 at 8:44pm | IP Logged 
I think that pitch is often claimed to not be important in the sense that you can be understood perfectly well without worrying about it, so if your main objective is simply to get by in Japanese it is probably better to spend more energy concentrating on other aspects of the language. However, without paying attention to pitch, your pronunciation will always be a bit strange or unnatural. I also think that the intonation of Japanese is one of the distinguishing features that makes it so beautiful, at least for me, to listen to.

However, so far I have been totally useless at studying pitch accent myself. I had an exchange partner last year who was very good at correcting problems with intonation but unfortunately it became too difficult to arrange practice sessions due to coordinating our other commitments around the time zones. On the plus side, I am reasonably good at imitating with correct intonation, but I haven't really figured out what the system is as such in order to make a conscious effort to internalise it. My speaking is pretty weak anyway so I still have rather a lot to think about when I am communicating in Japanese!

What deliberate steps have you taken in order to work on your pitch accent? Is there any good explanatory material relating to the system that you can recommend?
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Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 4469 days ago

3971 posts - 7746 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 69 of 407
31 January 2011 at 9:20pm | IP Logged 
g-bod wrote:
What deliberate steps have you taken in order to work on your pitch accent? Is there any good explanatory material relating to the system that you can recommend?

I can recommend this and this site. However, a large part of what I know I learned from asking very patient native speakers to repeat various forms until I could figure out the underlying pattern myself.

As for deliberate steps, I try to look up words whenever I have doubts about the pitch, particularly the most common verbs. I then take this information and try to predict how the entire sentence will go. When I'm fairly certain, I repeat it every now and then in an effort to form correct habits. I try not to let doubts remain doubts and look things up whenever I get the chance.
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Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 4469 days ago

3971 posts - 7746 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 70 of 407
09 February 2011 at 8:31pm | IP Logged 
I've been rather lazy lately. However, I have certainly not lost my focus. I try to think in Japanese everyday. I take note of words I don't know and look them up. I continue to watch dramas, maybe every second day, and I'm still reading 日本人の知らない日本語. The drama was fun.

I also found a list of the 15,000 most common Japanese words (no doubt from newspapers) in order of frequency, and I delete words I know as I come across them. I haven't yet read the entire list, or even a quarter of it, but I've managed to delete over 2000 words so far. I was surprised that I knew that much. After all, these words are all out of context. In the midst of discouraging moments, I'll take all the encouragement I can find.

Just bought another electronic dictionary. I had already bought the XD-GP9700 from Casio about 2 years ago, but I decided to go for the new XD-B7200 (French-English-Japanese) in large part because I wanted the NHK accent dictionary that the newer models include, and was looking forward to the French dictionaries. A friend's friend will be bringing it when she visits in 2 weeks. If anyone is interested in the older model...

Edited by Arekkusu on 09 February 2011 at 10:06pm

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librarian
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 4158 days ago

9 posts - 9 votes
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 71 of 407
09 February 2011 at 9:28pm | IP Logged 
Arekkusu wrote:


I also found a list of the 15,000 most common Japanese words (no doubt from newspapers)
in order of frequency,


Where did you find this list?
1 person has voted this message useful



Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 4469 days ago

3971 posts - 7746 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 72 of 407
09 February 2011 at 9:58pm | IP Logged 
librarian wrote:
Arekkusu wrote:

I also found a list of the 15,000 most common Japanese words (no doubt from newspapers)
in order of frequency,

Where did you find this list?

Here you go!
http://www.manythings.org/japanese/words/leeds/



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