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Introverts and Extroverts

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Li Fei
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 Message 41 of 59
19 November 2010 at 12:44pm | IP Logged 
Those are great ideas, Doviende, and for some reason that type of practice hadn't occurred to me. I am much
more excited about practicing in my head than about finding a Skype partner, which, I guess, proves my
introvert nature.
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hjordis
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 Message 42 of 59
19 November 2010 at 7:44pm | IP Logged 
Aineko wrote:
hjordis wrote:
An introvert is somebody who's drained by social interaction, not
somebody who doesn't like to talk a lot or anything to do with what topics are being
discussed.

if you are referring to my previous post, I was talking about situations when social
interaction actually happen (that socialising is tiring for introverts is a separate
story). I do think that in a social interaction introvert is more interested in the
topic, purpose of the interaction, than interaction itself (compared to an extrovert).

I guess people who could experience problems in language learning are introverts who have
to get to oral fluency quickly (not just learning a language out of enjoyment) and shy
extroverts. In other cases goals and preferred learning methods are much more compatible.
I was more referring to the people saying that you can't possibly be an introvert if you ever enjoy social interaction. I agree completely that an introvert is more interested in the topic. They'd have to be, since they aren't interested in the interaction.

I don't know, I just don't find talking to myself all that useful. That's not to say I don't do it, because I do it all the time. I just feel it's much more beneficial, at least to me, to have some sort of external response. Maybe that has to do with being exposed to more words and speaking patterns though, in which case I guess it doesn't have much to do with developing an active vocabulary, and there are ways to do that alone too. It's just nice to do both at once instead of using separate activities.

Edited by hjordis on 19 November 2010 at 7:46pm

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CaucusWolf
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 Message 43 of 59
19 November 2010 at 10:47pm | IP Logged 
     MSA forces you into the so called "Introvert" learning style because for the most part people simply won't speak the language with you. I can't see how anyone could find fault with this learning style when in certain cases it's a requirement.(i.e MSA, Ancient Greek, Latin, etc. Even though these aren't spoken outside of religious and intellectual circles with the exception of MSA.) I couldn't be happier with this style personally.
    I like everyone else am interested in topics that strike my interests. Most if not all people don't enjoy topics that bore them or are of no interest to them. Certain types of people just like talking and socializing and this type of environment makes it easier for them to learn.(After all we cannot deny that this is valid and was the only way to learn before books.) To say that one is better then the other is nonsense in my opinion because not everyone thinks or learns the same way.
    I used to have a friend a long time ago who didn't trust anyone who didn't speak enough and/or seemed reclusive. When he first met me he was very skeptical about me until he got to know me. The thing is I didn't trust people who talked alot which he did. It just shows the misconceptions we have in both groups towards eachother. Lets not dismiss the introvert as a stereotypical total recluse or the Chatty Cathy as the person who is shallow and is a big mouth.

Edited by CaucusWolf on 19 November 2010 at 10:51pm

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Aineko
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 Message 44 of 59
20 November 2010 at 12:26am | IP Logged 
CaucusWolf wrote:
      MSA forces you into the so called "Introvert" learning style
because for the most part people simply won't speak the language with you. I can't see
how anyone could find fault with this learning style when in certain cases it's a
requirement.(i.e MSA, Ancient Greek, Latin, etc. Even though these aren't spoken
outside of religious and intellectual circles with the exception of MSA.) I couldn't
be happier with this style personally.

ha, that would be an interesting survey: what is the percentage of
introverts/extroverts in the studies of dead languages?
Quote:
Lets not dismiss the introvert as a stereotypical total recluse or the Chatty
Cathy as the person who is shallow and is a big mouth.

The more widely present misconception is introvert=shyness. It is hard to avoid though
when even online dictionaries offer 'a shy person' in a definition of 'introvert'
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert).
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thephantomgoat
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 Message 45 of 59
20 November 2010 at 4:18am | IP Logged 
From the September 2010 issue of Psychology Today, an article entitled "Revenge of the
Introvert": http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201008/revenge-the-i ntrovert

Some quotes from the first page of the linked article (bolding mine):

"I am one of the many people whose personality confers on them a preference for the
inner world of their own mind rather than the outer world of sociability. Depleted
by too much external stimulation, we thrive on reflection and solitude.
Our psychic
opposites, extraverts, prefer schmoozing and social life because such activities boost
their mood. They get bored by too much solitude."

"...introversion and extraversion exist on a continuous dimension that is normally
distributed.
There are a few extremely extraverted folk, and a few extreme
introverts, while most of us share some extravert and some introvert traits."

"Scientists now know that, while introverts have no special advantage in intelligence,
they do seem to process more information than others in any given situation. To digest
it, they do best in quiet environments, interacting one on one. Further, their brains
are less dependent on external stimuli and rewards to feel good.
"As a result, introverts are not driven to seek big hits of positive emotional
arousal—they'd rather find meaning than bliss—making them relatively immune to the
search for happiness that permeates contemporary American culture.
In fact, the
cultural emphasis on happiness may actually threaten their mental health. As American
life becomes increasingly competitive and aggressive, to say nothing of blindingly
fast, the pressures to produce on demand, be a team player, and make snap decisions cut
introverts off from their inner power source, leaving them stressed and depleted.
Introverts today face one overarching challenge—not to feel like misfits in their own
culture."

"On the surface, introversion looks a lot like shyness. Both limit social
interaction, but for differing reasons.
The shy want desperately to connect but
find socializing difficult...Introverts seek time alone because they want time alone.
An introvert and a shy person might be standing against the wall at a party, but the
introvert prefers to be there, while the shy individual feels she has no choice."

A card-carrying introvert myself, I found a lot of insights in this article and highly
recommend reading the rest of it.

Edited for reformatting.

Edited by thephantomgoat on 20 November 2010 at 11:36am

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CaucusWolf
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 Message 46 of 59
20 November 2010 at 4:55am | IP Logged 
Aineko wrote:

Quote:
Lets not dismiss the introvert as a stereotypical total recluse or the Chatty
Cathy as the person who is shallow and is a big mouth.

The more widely present misconception is introvert=shyness. It is hard to avoid though when even online dictionaries offer 'a shy person' in a definition of 'introvert'
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert).

     Someone could say that a recluse is shy when in fact he/she wants to reflect on any range of studies and thoughts. Another possibility being something along the lines of being traumatized and/or just doesn't like people in general.(which of course being the stereotype.) There's many definitions and possibilities and combinations of possibilities for each person.   
    The definition at Merriam was "one whose personality is characterized by introversion; broadly : a reserved or shy person" So it is either reserved or shy and one can be reserved and not shy. So one could be an introvert and not be shy. Also when we're taking into account a study type then the way we use the word is different and it may not necessarily reflect on our personality as a whole. I also found this article interesting. http://giftedkids.about.com/od/glossary/g/introvert.htm
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Jinx
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 Message 47 of 59
20 November 2010 at 5:35am | IP Logged 
I've just read through this entire thread, and found it very interesting! It's constantly surprising to me how many misconceptions there are out there about introverts, including:
- introverts are shy
- introverts are socially awkward
- introverts are snobbish
- introverts aren't interested in talking to other people
- and so on and so on...

The best definition of the difference between introverts and extroverts that I've found is the same one that was paraphrased here earlier by hjordis:

"Introverts draw their energy from solitude. Extroverts draw their energy from other people."

As you can see, this clearly doesn't imply positive or negative traits about either one; they are simply different. If you have trouble figuring out which you are, imagine you've just had a long stressful day at the office and you've finally gotten home. How do you want to relax: spending the evening alone working on your own hobbies, reading a book, etc.? Or calling up a friend and heading out for a drink and a chat? As is probably clear, the first is a more classic introvert-situation where the second is a more classic extrovert-situation. That's not to say that all introverts would prefer the first scenario and vice versa – I'm just giving some examples.

I consider myself to be very far towards the introvert end of the continuum, and I know many people who claim to be introverts and yet, in comparison to me, are complete extroverts. For example: I hate parties. Why? I find them boring. Not exhausting, not intimidating; boring. At that sort of social get-together, I always feel like I'm waiting. Waiting for something worthwhile to happen. And invariably, it doesn't. People drink, dance, laugh, gossip, flirt, squeal at headache-inducing decibel levels... (okay, the last one doesn't always happen, I guess this is getting a little personal!) The point is, I find all that stuff completely boring.

And yet! When I was living in Berlin and working my tail off to learn German, I went on an online dating site, found a German guy, got in touch with him, planned to go to an art exhibition to meet up with him, and proceeded to go and have a great time – *because I was speaking German*. Since I was furthering my purpose of learning a language, the entire experience was productive, and therefore I enjoyed it! (After a couple of hours I had to go home to recharge, though, being an introvert.)

Maybe I can brush away a few more false theories here... yes, I am an extreme introvert. I have exceptional conversational and social skills, can be friendly and charming, and can even enjoy being the center of attention. But after a little time spent doing these things, I need to escape and catch my breath. I'm the type of person who survives the work week and looks forward to Friday evening – for doing hours upon hours of language study!
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crafedog
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 Message 48 of 59
20 November 2010 at 7:40am | IP Logged 
I would definitely consider myself to be an introvert, especially when it comes to
learning languages. In normal life I don't really care about it (if the topic's
interesting, I'll contribute. If not, I won't) but in languages this can have some
distinct advantages and disadvantages.

I would like to say though, I like the inner monologue idea and have used it from time
to time, but do be careful. If you're directly translating in your head then you might
be making a few mistakes that you don't want to become ingrained. There are perfectly
legitimate ways of translating/converting my inner monologue into Spanish but there are
plenty of Spanish differences that would trip my Spanish up (prepositions, 'when',
gerunds or infinitives etc). Sound great in English, sound rubbish in Spanish.

I would advice people who do this to do a few things: 1. Have a lot of exposure to the
target language (assimil, 10k sentences etc) 2. If you have/haven't done this, then
make sure you say things that are only at your level. If you don't know how to say it,
don't say it, make a note of it and ask a native speaker. 3. If you're not sure of
something, again, ask a native (Ling 8, this forum etc).

In English there are perfectly, grammatically legitimate ways of saying something, but
we just don't say it. For example the grammar 'must'. Must can be quite common, very
similar to 'have to', 'need to' with minor differences. However which question sounds
better/more natural: "Must we do our homework?" "Do we have to do our homework?" 'Must'
is the easier structure here but sounds strange because (I believe) it's just old-
fashioned so few people speak like that nowadays. To the 'inner monologuer' they might
not realise this and continue 'speaking' like this till it becomes ingrained.

Now in some ways the inner monologue can be effective. When people speak a language,
they can make a dozen mistakes without realising they've spoken them. If you do the
inner monologue way, it'll be easier to 'listen' to what you're 'saying'. You also
won't be picking up other people's mistakes, because you'll be working alone and just
focusing on what you want to 'say'. And finally, practice is practice. Anything that
helps your ability to make sentences and make them quick is good but do keep the tips
above in mind.


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