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MT German Case System

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Random review
Diglot
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United Kingdom
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Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

 
 Message 17 of 60
21 November 2010 at 11:48pm | IP Logged 
Kugel wrote:


Perhaps this might be of interest to you?

.


I should say so! Nevertheless I still think we should ALSO have a pdf, since by printing it off you have a very low-tech add-on to your MT German Course. As someone in a minimum-wage job who hasn't always had his own laptop and only recently got internet access at home (because my flatmate got it, and let me in for just 10 pounds per month) I really want less well-off people such as myself to be able to print it off at their local library and use it at home. But for those with internet access at home your idea seems great to me!
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Andy E
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 Message 18 of 60
21 November 2010 at 11:59pm | IP Logged 
Random review wrote:
It is covered by rule 4, (since the ein here is one of the 2 exceptions I mentioned where the indefinite article does NOT take an ending to show what pronoun the noun is replacing, the adjective therefore has to do so),


4)If the noun is not preceded by some word (such as “the” or “this” or “a”) that shows which pronoun it is replacing then the adjective has to do it

Martin,

I thought that was what you were getting at but wanted to be sure because you'd included the indefinite article in the rule and that bit should probably be reworked slightly. I ended up reading it as only applying to cases where the adjective stands alone - IIRC Hammer refers to it as "mixed" and "strong" declensions.

Andy.


Quote:
No, I was very clear in my introduction that none of these ideas are mine (though I do claim a BIT of credit for bringing them together from different sources), and therefore I have no right to set myself up as "in charge" of this thread, I apologise if I came across that way.


There's a lot of credit due here and you shouldn't be apologising for anything...

...someone needs to be in charge!




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Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4146 days ago

781 posts - 1310 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

 
 Message 19 of 60
22 November 2010 at 12:40am | IP Logged 
Andy E wrote:
Random review wrote:
It is covered by rule 4, (since the ein here is one of the 2 exceptions I mentioned where the indefinite article does NOT take an ending to show what pronoun the noun is replacing, the adjective therefore has to do so),


4)If the noun is not preceded by some word (such as “the” or “this” or “a”) that shows which pronoun it is replacing then the adjective has to do it

Martin,

I thought that was what you were getting at but wanted to be sure because you'd included the indefinite article in the rule and that bit should probably be reworked slightly. I ended up reading it as only applying to cases where the adjective stands alone - IIRC Hammer refers to it as "mixed" and "strong" declensions.

Andy.



Yes, what I wrote was very ambiguous, a bad thing in a lesson! I think it needs to be totally re-written. I'm probably off work tomorrow, so I'll have a go tonight, but please have a go too, then by comparing our two efforts we might come up with something better than either.

I'm rather enjoying the unearned praise, so it really, really hurts me to admit the following, but it's the truth. Yes there is a lot of credit due here, but sadly only a very very little of it is due to me for bringing it all together in one place. For instance I got the idea about adjective endings here. Before anyone comes on here complaining that Prof. Kuhn-Osius' explanation is MUCH MUCH clearer than mine (which it is!) please note that I am trying to integrate it (unsuccesfully so far) with the explanation of how the articles behave, which I got elsewhere (his is a stand-alone lesson on adjectives). I can already see that the way forward might be to seperate the two sections more completely, which would leave the way open to use his lovely clear "dictionary article ending" explanation (with the added benefit that it would obviate the need for a seperate section on plural adjectives). The problem is that this would essentially constitute copying. I suppose I could try to find an email for him and ask his permission to do so (with an appropriate citation). All this said, I would ideally LIKE to retain control of the thread if possible (I'm only human and have an ego like everyone else), but the most important thing is that something good be produced- the gaping hole of the German Case System has long irked me with MT's otherwise wonderful course, and the poor guy had nothing to do with the Vocabulary Course published after his death.

Edited by Random review on 22 November 2010 at 6:46am

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Andy E
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 Message 20 of 60
22 November 2010 at 11:37am | IP Logged 
Quote:
I can already see that the way forward might be to seperate the two sections more completely,


I like the progression from pronouns to articles to adjectives and it would be a shame to lose that because that ties it all together.

I've looked through Lesson 7 again (particularly the explanation of rule 4) and you have covered it - I just didn't read it properly. Maybe an extra example for each of the ER and ES situations with the indefinite article for clarification...
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Kugel
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 Message 21 of 60
24 November 2010 at 4:08pm | IP Logged 
Random review wrote:
Kugel wrote:


Perhaps this might be of interest to you?

.


I should say so! Nevertheless I still think we should ALSO have a pdf, since by printing it off you have a very low-tech add-on to your MT German Course. As someone in a minimum-wage job who hasn't always had his own laptop and only recently got internet access at home (because my flatmate got it, and let me in for just 10 pounds per month) I really want less well-off people such as myself to be able to print it off at their local library and use it at home. But for those with internet access at home your idea seems great to me!


There is a printable option for anyone who wants to use a paper and pen rather than a computer. The website was in fact developed by a Lithuanian who was influenced by MT. However, not all of the courses on the site are related to MT, and the closest thing to him would be a homebrew Japanese course that's about 3-4 lessons long, which is all done in audio with the transcripts that have embedded prompts. What a PDF can't do is force the learner to use prompts. Of course, a low-tech method would be covering up the answer with a sheet of paper when asked the question, "How do you say....?"

The website is just a method to streamline the process of working out a sequence of prompts and explanations, nothing more.   
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Andy E
Triglot
Senior Member
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Joined 5466 days ago

1651 posts - 1938 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, French

 
 Message 22 of 60
24 November 2010 at 8:54pm | IP Logged 
Kugel wrote:
The website is just a method to streamline the process of working out a sequence of prompts and explanations, nothing more.   


I missed your post first time round. I have to say I really like the idea of turning this into a series of lessons similar to what you (and others) have done there. It fits perfectly with the "how do you say" prompts.

And if you can print it out as well...
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translator2
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 Message 23 of 60
24 November 2010 at 10:07pm | IP Logged 
German case endings made easy
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Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4146 days ago

781 posts - 1310 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

 
 Message 24 of 60
24 November 2010 at 10:19pm | IP Logged 
Nearly finished my 2nd draft of the adjective section, anybody else got one too? I'll put mine on the above site (hopefully tonight). You guys have been great, but I had hoped for more people to give feedback, especially anyone who who had completed MT German, but didn't yet know the cases, in order to see whether it works or not. If nothing else I am a bit disappointed not to get some feedback on this from Caintear, as I think he speaks German, he's not normally shy when it comes to giving his opinion, and frankly this is probably the only thread mentioning Michel Thomas that he isn't on ha ha (no offence intended if you read this).


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