Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Intelligibility, Afrikaans & Dutch?

 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages Post Reply
36 messages over 5 pages: 1 2 35  Next >>
ReneeMona
Diglot
Senior Member
Netherlands
Joined 4456 days ago

864 posts - 1274 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2
Studies: French

 
 Message 25 of 36
29 November 2010 at 4:47pm | IP Logged 
It's funny that you should mention that because I watched that episode a while back and had some mixed feelings about it. The language spoken in the opening scene sounded like no language I had ever heard before and I didn't understand a word of it so don't worry, it's definitely not you. When they later said it was a Dutch ship I thought "Wait, so that was supposed to be Dutch? No way!" but it might be some form of Afrikaans. I'll have to re-watch it because I only saw it once.

They kind of redeemed themselves though, by casting a real Dutch women in a Dutch role. The moment she started talking I said "See, now that's a Dutch accent!". Kudos to House for not trying to pass of a German or Scandinavian accent as a Dutch one.
3 persons have voted this message useful



Ncruz
Pentaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4659 days ago

31 posts - 56 votes 
Speaks: Spanish, English*, Dutch, Portuguese, Afrikaans
Studies: French, German, Italian, Russian, Norwegian, Japanese, Scottish Gaelic

 
 Message 26 of 36
29 November 2010 at 8:20pm | IP Logged 
A while back I wrote about this in a similar thread:

Ncruz wrote:
I found a very interesting map that shows how close Dutch and Afrikaans dialects are to Standard Dutch. I don't now how accurate it is, but it is nonetheless fascinating. Interestingly, it shows that Afrikaans as spoken in the West Cape is closer to standard Dutch than many European dialects of Dutch. It ranks the dialects of Dutch/Afrikaans as a number with 1 being standard Dutch. The higher the number, the further it is from standard. Here is the map.

I have asked my cousins back in South Africa what they think of the matter and they seem to feel that Afrikaans is linguistically more like a dialect of Dutch, but because of the different histories of Afrikaans and Dutch and the outside influences on Afrikaans it qualifies as a different language than Dutch. I think that it is also a matter of prestige and pride. If Dutch and Afrikaans were considered the same language, South Africans would be mocked for their failure to conjugate verbs and simplistic grammar, and be looked down upon as speakers of very poor Dutch. However, since Afrikaans is a language in its own right, the peculiarities that evolved in Africa are now considered standard and not mocked as uneducated, but rather praised as an expression of Afrikaner culture.

5 persons have voted this message useful



lex3000
Diglot
Newbie
United Kingdom
afrikaanslond&#
Joined 4371 days ago

6 posts - 12 votes
Speaks: English*, Afrikaans
Studies: Esperanto

 
 Message 27 of 36
30 November 2010 at 8:03am | IP Logged 
I'm English and have been teaching myself Afrikaans for about 11 years. I did a Dutch course at around the time I started although all it really did was to leave me with a more Dutch-sounding accent. Whilst I can read Dutch to a reasonable level, I find the spelling differences actually quite difficult, for example “ij” instead of “y”, “sch” instead of “sk” look odd to me now because I’m so familiar with Afrikaans. In addition, as previous posters have pointed out, the pronunciation also has differences.

I’ve been able to chat reasonably well with Dutch people and Flemings without adapting my Afrikaans. There is of course a difference between native Afrikaans speaker and a learner speaking Afrikaans with a Dutch person or Fleming. Funnily enough, two Afrikaans friends told me about a recent trip to Gent where they spoke Afrikaans with the Flemish staff in a restaurant who asked if they were from the Netherlands.

I’ve also found Afrikaans quite a useful starting point for other Germanic languages and it’s helped me with German in particular and with Swedish to a lesser degree.
3 persons have voted this message useful



EmmiInEurope
Tetraglot
Newbie
South Africa
nederlandsvirafrikaa
Joined 4236 days ago

13 posts - 26 votes
Speaks: Afrikaans*, English, French, Dutch
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 28 of 36
30 November 2010 at 12:12pm | IP Logged 
Doitsujin wrote:
This might be a bit off-topic, but I thought that this was the best
thread to ask my question.

At the beginning of a recent episode of House, MD (7x7 - "A Pox on Our House")
there was flash-back scene in an old slave ship were the crew was supposedly speaking
Dutch. I really had a hard time understanding anything and chalked it up to my
admittedly very rusty Dutch.

Later I did some research and found out that the actor who played the Dutch captain was
from South Africa and most likely spoke Afrikaans and not Dutch. Can someone who speaks
Afrikaans and/or Dutch and has seen this particular episode confirm this?


Yes, indeed, he speaks Afrikaans.
3 persons have voted this message useful



NiceApple
Newbie
United Kingdom
applelanguages.nl/
Joined 4229 days ago

6 posts - 8 votes

 
 Message 29 of 36
30 November 2010 at 2:57pm | IP Logged 
I'm a native Dutch speaker myself and to us, without offending anyone, Afrikaans sounds like a simplefied, and slightly funny, version of Dutch. With some knowledge about the vocabulary (since many words do differ from Dutch) a Dutch speaker would probably be perfectly able to get along in Africa. Therefore, an African speaker should also be able to get along fine in the Netherlands in an informal situation. But for work, he would really have to brush up his Dutch and learn Dutch vocabulary and grammar.
2 persons have voted this message useful



CheeseInsider
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 4243 days ago

193 posts - 238 votes 
Speaks: English*, Mandarin*
Studies: French, German

 
 Message 30 of 36
30 November 2010 at 9:31pm | IP Logged 
Ncruz wrote:
A while back I wrote about this in a similar thread:

Ncruz wrote:
I found a very interesting map that shows how close Dutch and Afrikaans dialects are to Standard Dutch. I don't now how accurate it is, but it is nonetheless fascinating. Interestingly, it shows that Afrikaans as spoken in the West Cape is closer to standard Dutch than many European dialects of Dutch. It ranks the dialects of Dutch/Afrikaans as a number with 1 being standard Dutch. The higher the number, the further it is from standard. Here is the map.

I have asked my cousins back in South Africa what they think of the matter and they seem to feel that Afrikaans is linguistically more like a dialect of Dutch, but because of the different histories of Afrikaans and Dutch and the outside influences on Afrikaans it qualifies as a different language than Dutch. I think that it is also a matter of prestige and pride. If Dutch and Afrikaans were considered the same language, South Africans would be mocked for their failure to conjugate verbs and simplistic grammar, and be looked down upon as speakers of very poor Dutch. However, since Afrikaans is a language in its own right, the peculiarities that evolved in Africa are now considered standard and not mocked as uneducated, but rather praised as an expression of Afrikaner culture.


Thanks for that map! Do you think you'd be able to post a link to the thread you were talking about? :) Thanks for your reply!

lex3000 wrote:
I'm English and have been teaching myself Afrikaans for about 11 years. I did a Dutch course at around the time I started although all it really did was to leave me with a more Dutch-sounding accent. Whilst I can read Dutch to a reasonable level, I find the spelling differences actually quite difficult, for example “ij” instead of “y”, “sch” instead of “sk” look odd to me now because I’m so familiar with Afrikaans. In addition, as previous posters have pointed out, the pronunciation also has differences.

I’ve been able to chat reasonably well with Dutch people and Flemings without adapting my Afrikaans. There is of course a difference between native Afrikaans speaker and a learner speaking Afrikaans with a Dutch person or Fleming. Funnily enough, two Afrikaans friends told me about a recent trip to Gent where they spoke Afrikaans with the Flemish staff in a restaurant who asked if they were from the Netherlands.

I’ve also found Afrikaans quite a useful starting point for other Germanic languages and it’s helped me with German in particular and with Swedish to a lesser degree.


That's an interesting anecdote :) Somebody speaking Afrikaans being mistaken as someone from the Netherlands. I guess the grammatical differences must not be too noticeable in speech then?

Edited by CheeseInsider on 30 November 2010 at 9:32pm

1 person has voted this message useful



t123
Diglot
Senior Member
South Africa
https://github.com/t
Joined 4732 days ago

139 posts - 226 votes 
Speaks: English*, Afrikaans

 
 Message 31 of 36
30 November 2010 at 10:10pm | IP Logged 
It's not a Western Cape accent, it's actually the Cape Coloured accent they're talking
about, who mainly live in the Western Cape. I remember reading an article a while back
where they were looking for people to work at a call centre for Dutch companies. They
preferred coloured people since their pronunciation is closer to Dutch. I think they
said it took about 3 months of training before they started, unfortunately I can't find
the article. I can't find a decent example of the accent, but here's a small video
example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J98eswimr4 at around 0:30 you can hear the guy
say jy with a J sound (like jay), in standard Afrikaans it's a Y (like yay). Most of
the other videos I found were full of slang and/or potentially not appropriate ;)

Otherwise I see someone has upload an entire old Afrikaans series from around 1990 I
think, called Orkney Snork Nie: http://www.youtube.com/results?
search_query=orkney+snork+nie&page=&utm_source=opensearch (Orkney is a small town in
SA). There's also another series called Vetkoek Paleis on YouTube.


2 persons have voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 5824 days ago

9078 posts - 16472 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 32 of 36
01 December 2010 at 12:24am | IP Logged 
Even though I normally don't watch sitcoms I had to take a look at this Snork thing. It took me several minutes to get accostumed to it (those people definitely had the diphtongs I mentioned above), and only around halfway through a 8 minutes episode could I in general terms follow what the actors said. This isn't surprising - the podcasts from Radio sonder Grense have voices that each speak for several minutes in a level tone without interruptions (and without music) - of course that is easier to understand.

NCruz's map is very interesting. As far as I can see the only area that is substantially further away from Standard Dutch is the area around Limburg. Well, actually I have always had the impression that the dominating language there is Wallonian French so those few who speak a remote Dutch dialect there must feel somewhat ostracized. the Ethnologue has as expected classified Limburgisch as a language: "Classification: Indo-European, Germanic, West, High German, German, Middle German, West Middle German, Rhenisch Franconian" . It is interesting that according to this classification Limburgisch is closer to Letzeburgisch and the neighbouring German dialects than to Standard Dutch. The other Dutch dialects lie closer to the standard form than Afrikaans does, so the map doesn't really support a claim that Afrikaans just should be one Dutch dialect among others.



Edited by Iversen on 14 December 2010 at 9:37am



1 person has voted this message useful



This discussion contains 36 messages over 5 pages: << Prev 1 2 35  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.3457 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2022 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.