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The importance of a good accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5796 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 81 of 255 13 December 2010 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
The problem here is that we're now into the realm of aesthetics, which can be subjective. If there is such a thing as charming, there is such a thing as charmless. If there is such a things as cute, there is such a thing as ugly. If there is such a thing as attractive, there is such a thing as repulsive. So for every French accent, with its cute, attractive charm, there's an Anglophone accent trampling its ugly, clumsy, oversized feet across whatever language it comes into contact with. And I say that as an anglophone myself. So yeah, if you're a French speaker, stick with your own accent. If you're not... best not to.
The reason I say pronunciation has to have early focus is that "a later date" is too late to correct anything other than superficial detail. If your phoneme map isn't complete at an early stage, it is practically impossible to fix later. Edited by Cainntear on 13 December 2010 at 10:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5166 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 82 of 255 13 December 2010 at 10:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
Are you sure about that? A lot of learners will say they don't care about grammar, "as long as I can get my message across". I personally know a few people who will say that. (Yes, their grammar IS awful.) Or that they don't care about complex or advanced vocabulary. And you could ask the same question -- WHY should they bother learn proper grammar? So they can be understood better? Sure, it would help, but they think they are doing just fine as it is. Will imperfect pronunciation be understood all the time? Surely not. So it's back to the same problem, people claiming that something isn't worth investing effort into because they can still get their message across without it. (ok, now I'm getting dangerously close to saying what I said I wasn't saying...)
On this, I agree with Cainntear -- learning pronunciation is a lot more about paying attention to detail, than about repetitions. I don't recall ever doing practice exercices in any language, other than repeating words as they are introduced to me the first time. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5651 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 83 of 255 13 December 2010 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, yes. But that is taking my comment out of context. My point was that if you are trying to speak like you hear natives speaking, you cannot mimic sounds you can't hear. Would you care to speculate on roughly what percent of language learners learn reasonable pronunciation through academic transliteration? I suspect it is very small. I expect that the overwhelming majority (probably > 99%) of second language learners learn reasonable pronunciation by mimicking what they hear and not via transliteration. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5215 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 84 of 255 13 December 2010 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
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There seems to be an idea here that if you don't speak a language to native-level then for some reason you cannot master other areas. This is patently wrong and in my opinion does not warrant much debate.
To avoid repeating myself, I'll ask what is the real motivation for wanting to sound like a native? Is it for the sense of satisfaction or accomplishment? Is it to differentiate one from the 99% of us who do not achieve native-like pronunciation? Is it to "go native"? Whom am I trying to impress? And when we say native-like, what do we mean? Do I want to sound like a manual worker from Montreal, a university professor from Madrid or a British aristocrat? What kind of social identity do I want to project by my speaking? Honestly, these questions are moot. Most of us, try as we may, will never sound like native-speakers. We just have to find our own speaking comfort zone and move on to more important things. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5166 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 85 of 255 13 December 2010 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
I have no proof for this, so I suspect we'll continue to disagree, but generally, I contend that failing to use the general techniques involved in mimicking and internalizing native speech implies failing to use the most effective techniques for learning the rest of the language. That being said, there definitely are certain nuances in any language that one can only express through precise pronunciation/intonation.
My own. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5215 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 86 of 255 13 December 2010 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I took a short break from my computer (a good idea) and heard an interview in English of a French-speaking company executive. I was really struck by how articulate, sophisticated and engaging the person sounded despite an obvious but not obnoxious French accent. That did it for me. In my mind, our debate is over. You need good pronunciation but it doesn't have to be perfect. What should be perfect is your grammar and vocabulary. I say if you have to choose between perfect pronunciation and perfect grammar, go for perfect grammar. Grammar and vocabulary mistakes are what people will notice more than the little pronunciation screw-up.
Edited by s_allard on 14 December 2010 at 2:32am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5434 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 87 of 255 13 December 2010 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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People mess up vocab and grammar all the time in their native languages, but laugh at people with accents.
2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5233 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 88 of 255 13 December 2010 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
Hard to tell - I knew I could speak, but still was surprised with how much I was able to communicate (like complex subjects and not using English at all). Certainly far away from the beginner levels.
I hope you didn't jump into conclusion that I have no knowledge of phonology and was just mindlessly listening and repeating :). I've gone through few phonetics/phonology books, mostly because Arabic was (and still is) giving me trouble. I simply know that for me it does require a lot of effort - I know the theory, but I'm simply bad at perfectly imitating what I hear. So, on one side, it takes me a lot of time. On the other side, it is not crucial for full functionality. (on the third side, I have no emotional attachment to sounding like a native) - so my conclusion is "why would I bother?" And your last sentence is, I'd say, just your assumption. From my 'sample' of highly educated, (relatively :) ) young immigrants, I'd say foreign accent is one of the last things that stands between you and quick integration in a new country. It is more what you are talking about (your social skills and open mind for new stuff), then how you say it, as long as it is understandable. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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