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The importance of a good accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5216 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 105 of 255 14 December 2010 at 2:08am | IP Logged | |||||
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As I try to get my head around this arduous debate, I came up with the following idea. Let's imagine a composite index of 1 to 10 that measures phonetic proficiency in L2. 1 is thick accent, barely intelligible and 10 is native-like performance, the latter meaning that the speaker is identified as someone from one of the countries where the language is spoken.
After much diligent effort, typical of people here at HTLAL, I'm at 7 in Spanish. My fluency is good when I know what I want to say. Everybody understands me. I feel at ease. People no longer immediately switch to English or French to accommodate me. But nobody thinks I'm a native speaker of Spanish. My next goal is to pass the DELE C2 exams for Spanish in 2011. How do I prepare for them? First of all I notice that no where do the materials state that I have to sound like a native. In fact, if I look at the Cambridge materials for evaluating speaking proficiency at the C2 level in English, pronunciation is not very important. The main criteria are: Range, Accuracy, Fluency, Interaction and Coherence. I think that the reason pronunciation is not that important here is that the assumption is that anyone at the C2 level has certainly achieved relatively good pronunciation. The other parts of the exams look at reading, writing skills, listening and grammar and vocabulary. What is the best study strategy? How should I use my time over the next 6 months? To come back to the debate in this thread, there seems to be a school of thought that says you can't really master the language until you reach level 10 in the phonetic proficiency scale and that you won't understand the rest of the language unless you strive continuously to reach that level. I hope I'm getting it right. The other school of thought (where I am) says that 10 is very nice, but for the goals at hand my 7 is good enough. Of course, I'll always be trying to speak better every time I open my mouth. But since the C2 exams give relatively little value to pronunciation, I would be better advised to focus on everything else. So I do the usual stuff, concentrating specially on my weaknesses such as the imperfect of the subjunctive, compound prepositions and conjunctions. Then lots of reading to boost my vocabulary, especially idiomatic expressions. Followed by writing as much as I can for correction by my tutor. For those who are not sitting the C2 exam and who may have other aspirations, the phonetic 10 is a very valid goal. Grammar and vocabulary will tag along. I have no problem with this approach. I just don't think that it is best use of my time in preparation of my exams. That in a nutshell is my take on the whole issue. It all depends on what you want to do with the language. If sounding like a native is your priority, that's fine. If you want to pass the C2 exam, you may want to reconsider your priorities. Edited by s_allard on 14 December 2010 at 7:55pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5167 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 106 of 255 14 December 2010 at 2:29am | IP Logged | |||||
Not knowing exactly what 7 refers to on your scale, I'd say that attempting to get a pronunciation level superior to 7 is conducive to faster acquisition. I'd also venture that the closer you get to a 10, the closer you get to expressing every nuance a native speaker can express. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5234 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 107 of 255 14 December 2010 at 2:48am | IP Logged | |||||
What kind of nuances you have in mind? If you are talking about vocabulary, then you are obviously wrong (there are writers who write beautifully in their L2, despite having a foreign accent). 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5167 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 108 of 255 14 December 2010 at 3:00am | IP Logged | |||||
We are talking about pronunciation, so this obviously only applies to spoken language. I'm refering to expressing, at the uppermost end of scale, nuances of disbelief, contempt, concealed joy, relief, assurance, conviction, etc. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5059 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 109 of 255 14 December 2010 at 3:03am | IP Logged | |||||
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This thread has got disgustingly long and tiresome and I can only suppose that this is because some people here
have some insecurities about their accents and others like to rub in their having (as they say) attained native-like accent. The facts are the following: yes, pronunciation does not have to be perfect to be intelligible. But neither does grammar, nor spelling, nor does one need a large vocabulary range, etc. You can get by on French knowing perhaps only 6000 words, having an okay pronunciation, making errors in gender agreement and subjunctive use, etc. But is it not superior to know 12,000 words, have a perfect pronunciation, and not make grammatical errors? In other words, I don't understand why some people here are arguing that proper grammar and large vocabulary range are important measures of language success (yes, they are), but pronunciation isn't. Mere intelligibility isn't the point for some people. For some people the goal is perfection and they will continue to work on that goal even if they never reach it. Likewise, vocabulary-learning is a never-ending task. I do not pat myself on the back and say "Well, I speak English with a native accent and a near-perfect grammar, so I don't really need to learn new words." On the contrary, I always try to expand my vocabulary and refine grammatical ambiguities and errors. From the English perspective, I find that grammar mistakes are more irritating to me than mispronunciation, perhaps because the latter is very common as so many foreigners learn English. From the Serbian perspective, I am not at all disturbed by the odd declension or conjugation error (yes, native speakers mess up cases all the time, especially as you go to the southern parts of the country), but mispronunciation of the tonal accents is what I find jarring. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5059 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 110 of 255 14 December 2010 at 3:09am | IP Logged | |||||
1.) Person A is in a taxi in Greece and speaks Greek with a marked accent but is absolutely intelligible. Person B is in a taxi in Greece and speaks Greek with a perfect native-like accent. Do you think the taxi driver will charge both the same? 2.) You are singing an operatic aria in Czech. Is it better to sing it in an Italian accent or an English accent or a native Czech accent, assuming in all cases you are intelligible for those in the audience who know Czech? 3.) You plan to teach your child French. You will speak French to your baby whereas your husband speaks language X and the child will learn the native language of the country in which you reside in preschool. Which is better, to speak French with an intelligible foreign accent, or to speak it with a native accent and thereby give your child another truly native language? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5234 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 111 of 255 14 December 2010 at 3:18am | IP Logged | |||||
hmmm...I'm trying to think of an example where person with a foreign accent was misunderstood in these regards, but just not finding any. Maybe because these things are usually expressed with more universal signs (such as tone of voice or gestures). This is the only area where I could see myself agreeing with you about this whole native accent matter, but only in some far extreme examples, that may even not come up in someone's life time. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5234 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 112 of 255 14 December 2010 at 3:31am | IP Logged | |||||
maybe people are just passionate about defending their opinion (if they see it justified) and are enjoying the discussion, so no need for over-analysing.
1) I already said something about things like this in the previous thread. If someone does not respect me for being a foreigner, that certainly is not a reason for me to change my accent. The problem is in that person, not in my accent. 2) If you are a performer (actor, singer), then yes, accent is part of you profession, you have to work on it. If you are not a performer - who cares? 3)first, why would I teach my child a language that is not my native? I am always for learning from native speakers and getting your pronunciation as good as possible, with the effort one considers worth putting in it (someone stops at 7, someone goes to 10. I'm fine with both). So, I would get a native speaker for my child (I think I'll never know a language as good as I know my native one). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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