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The importance of a good accent

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
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Aineko
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5207 days ago

238 posts - 442 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin

 
 Message 153 of 255
16 December 2010 at 9:40pm | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:

Competition with yourself is about being the best you can be.

that's all OK, but what if you have to manage the resources (time in this case)? Like
s_allard, I'm pretty sure I am fairly limited in imitating sounds and it would take me
an awful lot of time to get to the near-native accent (I've done the experiment
yesterday with one English sound, and, I mean, really, no way I could do that for the
whole language :) - I'm sure I would achieve reading fluency in a new language for the
same amount time).
Quote:
If you don't like the archery analogy, consider language exams.
If you do an official preparation course for an organised language exam, you will learn
everything needed for the exam and nothing more. If you forget one thing on the day of
the exam, you won't get 100%. But if you study beyond the level of the exam you can
still get 100%, even if you don't learn anything. Aiming high always gets better
results.

Why are you ignoring my reference to practicality? Aim for whatever you want, you will
know if people are distracted by your accent or not. If you achieve the level where
they are not, it doesn't matter much what you were aiming for.

Edited by Aineko on 16 December 2010 at 9:40pm

3 persons have voted this message useful



Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 5140 days ago

3971 posts - 7747 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 154 of 255
16 December 2010 at 10:01pm | IP Logged 
I couldn't care less about bicycle racing. I like biking a lot, though, but if I met someone who told me that I shouldn't just be biking to work, that I should be training to be the fastest I can be, I simply wouldn't care -- as long as it gets me to work.

Is that what you mean, Aineko?

However, if I lived in a society full of cyclists where not being up there with the fastest could potentially harm my chances of success in life, I'd probably start caring. Maybe our perception of the potential limitations is different.

I care a lot about speaking my languages as well as possible. I want to speak so well that I could go unnoticed among native speakers. Perhaps I feel that I will gain better access to their culture if I do. Perhaps I feel that I would be missing out on something if I didn't. Perhaps it's just that I enjoy pushing my limits.

I've had a few conversations with strangers (on the bus, etc.) where they've revealed such things as hatred for francophones, or disgust for all things French in Canada. I could never have had access to that were it not for the efforts I put in. I'm not saying hearing such things was my goal, but gaining deeper insight into the culture is one of the rewards.


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Aineko
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5207 days ago

238 posts - 442 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin

 
 Message 155 of 255
16 December 2010 at 11:05pm | IP Logged 
Arekkusu wrote:
I couldn't care less about bicycle racing. I like biking a lot,
though,
but if I met someone who told me that I shouldn't just be biking to work, that I should
be training to be the fastest I can be, I simply wouldn't care -- as long as it gets me
to work.

Is that what you mean, Aineko?

I guess that's close to what I'm saying, but I really don't like these analogies.
Language is such a unique phenomenon in human species/culture, with such a distinctive
role
that these analogies never do the justice.

Quote:
However, if I lived in a society full of cyclists where not being up there with
the fastest could potentially harm my chances of success in life, I'd probably start
caring. Maybe our perception of the potential limitations is different.

I'm sure it is about perception. I'm an immigrant with a foreign accent and never had
any
problems or limitations because of it. Even in situations when you could expect them.
For
example, at one period of time I wanted some extra money and decided to look for a
part-
time job. Because I thought (wrongly, as it turned out) that I can't find suitable
scientific part-time job, I applied for jobs like a cashier at the supermarket,
waitress
and a call centre operator. I went personally or called, so they knew my accent (coz
even
I thought it might be the problem). I got called back for two out of three jobs. Ok, I
am
in science, in academic environment, place where people couldn't care less about your
accent, but these are not the only circles I found myself in. There are other spheres
of
my life and of course family and friends of my partner and accent simply never
mattered.
Not for me not for my foreign friends here.

Quote:
I care a lot about speaking my languages as well as possible. I want to speak so
well that I could go unnoticed among native speakers. Perhaps I feel that I will gain
better access to their culture if I do. Perhaps I feel that I would be missing out on
something if I didn't. Perhaps it's just that I enjoy pushing my limits.

I've had a few conversations with strangers (on the bus, etc.) where they've revealed
such things as hatred for francophones, or disgust for all things French in Canada. I
could never have had access to that were it not for the efforts I put in. I'm not
saying
hearing such things was my goal, but gaining deeper insight into the culture is one of
the rewards.

I'm lucky to be in an immigrant country, but my friends from university (of whom 80%
have also left Serbia) are in different countries. From both their experience and from
experience of having Serbian passport in probably the worse time in history to have
that
passport - I know very well about xenophobia. I don't need some accent related
experience
to teach me about it. However, as I already said - I don't see this as a problem with
my
accent. I see this as a problem of people being people.

Edited by Aineko on 16 December 2010 at 11:09pm

1 person has voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5189 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 156 of 255
16 December 2010 at 11:36pm | IP Logged 
I've given up trying to follow all the analogies and metaphors. I'll try to speak directly to the issue at hand. I think we seem to agree that in speaking a foreign language you do the best you can. Is that a problem for anybody? Nobody has said that speaking with a bad accent is good or that you should settle for mediocrity because "you can make yourself understood". It seems to me that everybody would also agree that "I want to speak so well that I could go unnoticed among native speakers" is a perfectly valid goal. I appreciate and respect that. I think most people here do as well.

The only problem seems to be that some people believe that this should be the only goal of speaking a foreign language. Furthermore, if you don't go unnoticed then you are missing something, your other language skills are probably lacking and you are content with mediocrity. Obviously I disagree. I don't see the necessity to go unnoticed among native speakers. In fact, for most of the world's languages, I don't think I could ever go unnoticed even if I spoke like a native. If I spoke Mandarin or Swahili like a native, I think I would be very noticed and I'll end up on Youtube.

I learn languages to appreciate a culture and a people. I just finished watching a Mexican film with the director's commentary in Spanish. It was a wonderful experience to be able to enjoy the film through the words of the creators. I hope to go to Mexico some time next year to take this experience to a higher level.

Do I want to go unnoticed in Mexico? To me it's a strange question. Why would I want to do that? So that Mexicans can tell me in an unguarded moment that they don't like gringos, little knowing that I'm one? I don't care about going unnoticed. I want to be at ease; I want to feel comfortable in the language. For that I'm working hard as hell on my grammar and vocabulary because there is where my weaknesses lie. I've watched the film four times and I intend to watch it as many times as necessary to pick up all the little details about Mexican usage that I can.

Actually, I think that my pronunciation is probably improving as well. I believe that grammar and vocabulary are the foundation of language proficiency. The key to fluency (in a technical sense) is to have a clear mental image of what you want to say. I concentrate specifically on technical vocabulary and idioms because this is what really distinguishes the sophisticated user.

When I listen to most English-speakers speaking French what I notice most is not the accent; it's the awful grammar and the lack of lexical accuracy. If these are very good, the foreign accent recedes into the background.

I think the cause of much misunderstanding here is really an optical illusion. Very good accent usually goes with good everything else. You rarely see someone with an impeccable accent and terrible grammar. But that does not mean, as some would have us believe, that phonetic ability is the main driver. I think it's the exact opposite. I think grammar and vocabulary drive everything else. My greatest frustration in Spanish is not struggling with the jota or the rolled r. As happened to me this afternoon, it's going into a bicycle shop and not being able to say in Spanish that I have a slow leak in my rear inner tube.

I tend to believe that pronunciation will take care of itself as our general proficiency progresses. I'm not saying that it's not important or that I don't care. I'm simply saying that working on grammar and vocabulary for speaking will inevitably lead to paying attention to how they are rendered phonetically



Edited by s_allard on 16 December 2010 at 11:38pm

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1qaz2wsx
Diglot
Groupie
Greece
Joined 5132 days ago

98 posts - 124 votes 
Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1
Studies: Russian, Albanian

 
 Message 157 of 255
18 December 2010 at 3:31pm | IP Logged 
Far more important than accent is fluency.The accent has to be acceptable,understandable.Natives will not mind if you are fluent in their language and you have an accent they can understand without much effort.It does not have to be perfect or native-like.Just understandable.They will mind if you are not fluent and you have a good accent or if you are fluent with a very heavy,for them, accent.
1 person has voted this message useful



Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
Joined 5770 days ago

4399 posts - 7687 votes 
Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh

 
 Message 158 of 255
18 December 2010 at 5:56pm | IP Logged 
1qaz2wsx wrote:
Far more important than accent is fluency.The accent has to be acceptable,understandable.Natives will not mind if you are fluent in their language and you have an accent they can understand without much effort.It does not have to be perfect or native-like.Just understandable.They will mind if you are not fluent and you have a good accent or if you are fluent with a very heavy,for them, accent.

A good accent results in better fluency.

Every language has its own phonotactics -- sounds that are possible to say together and sounds that aren't. In many cases, strings of sounds that seem difficult to the learner are made much easier when the sounds are pronounced more like a native speaker's accent.

After all, every language is easy for its speakers, right?

Languages with svarbhakti vowels are a particular example. Most people end up learning the svarbhakti vowel as a distinct phoneme, a syllable of its own. But if you learn the accent, the svarbhakti is incidental.
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1qaz2wsx
Diglot
Groupie
Greece
Joined 5132 days ago

98 posts - 124 votes 
Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1
Studies: Russian, Albanian

 
 Message 159 of 255
18 December 2010 at 6:40pm | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:
A good accent results in better fluency.


I disagree there.Accent and fluency do not go hand in hand.You can speak with an entirely alien accent and still be fluent in a language.Take for example Scottish English or Irish English.The accent is different and it is probably closer to the accent of the Celtic languages these people formerly spoke but they are still fluent in English.

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Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
Joined 5770 days ago

4399 posts - 7687 votes 
Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh

 
 Message 160 of 255
18 December 2010 at 7:03pm | IP Logged 
1qaz2wsx wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
A good accent results in better fluency.


I disagree there.Accent and fluency do not go hand in hand.You can speak with an entirely alien accent and still be fluent in a language.

You say you disagree, but what you say isn't contradictory to what I said.

I said "a good accent results in better fluency", I did not say that a good accent is necessary for fluency.


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