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The importance of a good accent

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Arekkusu
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 Message 225 of 255
26 April 2013 at 2:36pm | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:
I have a feeling that if you have a good ear for music, then you might also have a good ear for accents; if you can easily pick up a tune, then perhaps you can also easily pick up an accent.

Too many famous musicians and singers have awful accents for this to be a reliable expectation.
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Tsopivo
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 Message 226 of 255
26 April 2013 at 5:09pm | IP Logged 
Arekkusu wrote:

This is a very common response and it shows how people view this problem from different angles depending on what they've been able to achieve.

Those who tend to find accents easy don't consider that accents take a lot of time because actually, they don't usually devote a lot of time to the task, as they simply remain mindful of their pronunciation over the course of their study.

On the other hand, those who can't find an effective way to improve or fix their pronunciation problems are of the opinion that spending any more time on the issue is pointless as anything they have tried in the past has had minimal impact.


Yes, I did not go into that but I entirely agree except with

Arekkusu wrote:
This should not, however, lead the student to the conclusion that pronunciation is not important and, as others have pointed out, approximate pronunciation has just as much impact as approximate grammar.


Each person has their own goal and if a person decides that accent is not that important for them past whatever level they consider "good enough", then I don't see what the big deal is or how anyone else can disagree.

Personally, I have a French accent when speaking English and it has no impact whatsoever in my life. On the other hand, I am one of those people for whom accent does not come easily. So it seems that for me improving significantly would require lots of efforts for little results and I am not willing to do that.
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Chung
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 Message 227 of 255
26 April 2013 at 5:52pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
How important is a good accent for your perception of language skills?


Accent is important* but it competes with abilities in manipulating vocabulary, word order and inflection. I can't say that I let a learner's high abilities in pronunciation affect my judgement of their abilities in other areas of using a language.

On the other hand, my sometimes being able to express things at native or near-native levels in languages other than English seems to lead others to magnify (at least intially) my abilities in those languages. I gather that for these observers, a "good accent" is a strong or reliable indicator of equally high if not higher abilities in other aspects of using that language.

*By "accent", I interpret this to include prosody.
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Arekkusu
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 Message 228 of 255
26 April 2013 at 6:23pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
I gather that [...] a "good accent" is a strong or reliable indicator of equally high if not higher abilities in other aspects of using that language.

This is probably as close to a universal as we'll get when discussing pronunciation.

If a person produces a simple sentence with hesitation, we are right away drawn to the limitations that speaker has. If, however, he or she utters a few simple sentences to perfection or to a high degree of fluency, it's only normal to assume that the rest of the person's abilities are similar.

The question that follows is: is there any advantage to be had in leading a listener into thinking that our language skills are good? Yes, there is -- the listener will be more likely to continue to use the language with us, will use more natural language with more variety and is more likely to help us when we have trouble since they will assume we have gone to great lengths to learn their language well.
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luke
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 Message 229 of 255
26 April 2013 at 6:55pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
I think everybody aims for good pronunciation in their target language. That isn't the issue.


Not everyone. Some people are embarrased to "sound foreign" or "sound fake" (foreign). Aside from embarrasment, there is the personal question of priority. From reading this thread, clearly some people feel okay is good enough, and other strive for something better. Note, "something better" does not mean "near native". That's really an entirely different level that truly very few who begin learning a foreign language as adults will reach.

s_allard wrote:
Once you reach the point where you are clearly intelligible and not painful to listen to the question becomes what are your priorities.


Level of "pain" varies with the speaker and the listener. Perhaps a better word than "pain" is "patience demanded". Obviously there's a difference between someone who pronounces most things correctly and another who puts a native listener on their toes in order to comprehend the message.

The thing about "once you reach the point..." that gives pause is that pronunciation is often formed into habit. It seems to me that delaying vocal production until comprehension is well established helps with good accent formation.
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Tsopivo
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 Message 230 of 255
26 April 2013 at 7:32pm | IP Logged 
Arekkusu wrote:

This is probably as close to a universal as we'll get when discussing pronunciation.

(1) If a person produces a simple sentence with hesitation, we are right away drawn to the limitations that speaker has. If, however, he or she utters a few simple sentences to perfection or to a high degree of fluency, it's only normal to assume that the rest of the person's abilities are similar.

(2) The question that follows is: is there any advantage to be had in leading a listener into thinking that our language skills are good? Yes, there is -- the listener will be more likely to continue to use the language with us, will use more natural language with more variety and is more likely to help us when we have trouble since they will assume we have gone to great lengths to learn their language well.


(1) It seems to me that what you describe has a lot more to do with your fluency (and/or proficiency - I do not want to get into this debate) than with your accent. Of course, pronunciation is a part of it but I don't think that is the main thing that comes into play here. Interestingly, your example of what would cause people to assume your command of the language is limited was "hesitation".

(2) Except in a job interview, I would prefer that my listener get an accurate idea of my level rather than assuming it is better than it really is due to a great accent. Of course, I understand that the contrary (your listener thinking your abilities are worse than they are) could also be a problem but the truth is that even with my very recognizable French accent, it never happened to me that people switch to French and I think most of them do not change the way they speak for me. Time will also correct their false first impression in most cases so I am not too concerned with that.

Edited by Tsopivo on 26 April 2013 at 7:34pm

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Arekkusu
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 Message 231 of 255
26 April 2013 at 9:19pm | IP Logged 
Tsopivo wrote:
(1) If a person produces a simple sentence with hesitation, we are right away drawn to the limitations that speaker has. If, however, he or she utters a few simple sentences to perfection or to a high degree of fluency, it's only normal to assume that the rest of the person's abilities are similar.

(1) It seems to me that what you describe has a lot more to do with your fluency (and/or proficiency - I do not want to get into this debate) than with your accent. Of course, pronunciation is a part of it but I don't think that is the main thing that comes into play here. Interestingly, your example of what would cause people to assume your command of the language is limited was "hesitation".[/QUOTE]
I used "fluency" and "hesitation" for the sake of concision. I could have spoken of pronunciation or accent in general as all those things blend together to give the listener a general impression of the speaker's ability.
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Solfrid Cristin
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 Message 232 of 255
26 April 2013 at 10:25pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Quote:
I've seen Solfrid Cristin's video from a while ago and it seems obvious that she
doesn't do specific pronunciation work because, well, she doesn't need to. Some people
do just pick it up almost naturally as they learn the language, and I think the people
making the "why the hell would anyone need to spend significant time working
specifically on pronunciation?!?" arguments come under that category and so don't
understand the necessity of it for those of us who don't share their
ability/skill/talent/gift/whatever you want to call it


You're seeing the results after years of practice speaking Italian, French, German,
Spanish and English. I will bet you my bottom dollar it wasn't like that at the
beginning, and it wasn't for me either. I have had to spend concerted time on my
pronunciation in many languages, it's just been easy because it's always the first
thing I fix and pay attention to. That's not a gift, there is effort put into it, it's
simply combined with learning the rest of the language.


Well you would lose your bottom dollar, pumpkin. :-) In Spanish my accent was at its best at the age of 11, In
French at 14, in German at 17 and in Italian at 27. After that it has just gotten worse and worse. The only
language which may possibly have improved a smidgen over the years is English. I think it boils down to the
simple fact that for some of us pronunciation is learned as an integral part of the language, without any
particular effort, and for others it takes time and hard work.

This discussion actually gave me a flash back to when I was 5, and the week that I learned how to read and
to tie my shoelaces. Learning how to read was no effort at all, my mom gave me a set of letters and taught
me the alphabet, and by the end of the week I was starting to read children's books with big letters, and within
a year I read 4 books a day. Piece of cake.

45 years down the road I do however still remember the feeling of failure, and of being scolded because I
was such a clutz, that after weeks of practising how to tie my shoelaces I was not able to learn it until my
mom caved and taught me the easy way to do it. I was also 10 before I learned how to ride a bike or to swim
(though the latter may be connected to the fact that I had to learn at the shores of Norway).

In short, what we are naturally good at seems so easy that it is hard to understand why everyone can't get it
right, and what we are naturally bad at, seems like such a lot of work that we imagine that it takes a 1000
hours :-)


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