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The importance of a good accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 49 of 255 13 December 2010 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I think the goal of sounding like a native is laudable. As I said, if that is your goal, you have a lot of work ahead. Does one have to sound like a native to be able to seize all the nuances of a language? Do I have to sound like someone from the 16th arrondissement in Paris to fully understand all the nuances of the French language? I don't think so. And, frankly, I don't think anybody starting over the age of 16 will ever come close to sounding like a native Parisian unless they immediately move to Paris, attend a lycée and marry into a French family. And even then, they'll probably still have an accent. More importantly, however, is the question of how to use one's time and resources efficiently. I am certainly not against sounding like a native. I'm just saying that some people, like myself, believe that a) a native-like accent is not necessary to master the grammar and lexicon of a language and b) an intelligible but non-native speaking voice combined with good grammar an vocabulary is a very valid combination. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5163 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 50 of 255 13 December 2010 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Just came back from the dentist. I was talking with my dental hygenist and after a while she told me I was lucky to have grown up with 2 languages -- yet I didn't. I didn't start speaking English until I was about 15 and I lived in a French only area until I was 18 and never spoke English regularly until after that. Yet, she said she thought English was my first language. So much for 8 or 10 being a critical age. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5163 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 52 of 255 13 December 2010 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The majority of Canadians may be anglophones, but not everywhere. I grew up in a town that was 98.5% French speaking and I didn't know anyone who spoke English. As for being a professional translator, most translators I work with don't have native accents in their second language, so there is no direct correlation to be made here. Some do, however, and some of them learned their L2 later than the age bracket you insist on.
So basically, it's impossible, except for the people who do it. Right.
A 2-year-old can hardly string a few words together, let alone a decent sentence. I started learning Japanese when I was 34 and I most certainly intend to speak it like a native eventually. I've done it before and I will do it again. Edited by Arekkusu on 13 December 2010 at 5:57pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 53 of 255 13 December 2010 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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One may question the neurological basis for the critical period hypothesis. One could say that it's more the social setting that favors language learning among children. Fine, but the fact remains that best time to learn any language, and especially a foreign one, is in childhood. Does anyone here actually believe that there is no difference between learning a new language at age 8 and at age 18? I have seen a 10-year old Mexican child arrive in Montreal and learn to speak French fluently in school within six months and also learn excellent English in the school courtyard. Could her parents duplicate that? No. The setting is not the same. For all sorts of reasons, the parents will retain their Mexican accent in French and in English until they die.
How many people starting a language at the age of 15 will learn to speak like a native? Obviously, it depends on the circumstances. As I pointed out earlier, it's all about massive exposure and immersion. It is possible. How many people do succeed? Not many. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5163 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 54 of 255 13 December 2010 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
And that's the thing -- the parent's have other things to worry about, whereas the girl has the luxury of being able to devote huge amounts of time to the task. She also does not identify herself as Mexican, and sees no stigma in trying to sound like a native speaker of another language. I have no problem with the general notion that gaining a native-like accent requires more work when you start later, but when I read all the answers in this thread from people claiming that they don't care about their accent as long as they can be understood, I can't help think that's the biggest problem. If you don't think it's worth the trouble, how are you ever going to achieve it? I'm sure some people are also uncomfortable with the idea of sounding like (or "pretending to be", as some put it) a citizen of another country or of another culture, something children are not bothered by. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 55 of 255 13 December 2010 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Rather than arguing over whether an adult can learn to speak like a native or not, maybe we should talk about what it takes for this to happen. Given that probably less than 1% of the people who take up Japanese at the age of 34 and over end up speaking like a native Japanese speaker, let's focus on what are the critical success factors. Here are some of my suggestions:
1. A talent for mimicking foreign sounds. 2. A background in linguistics or some language-related field. 3. Stays in Japan. 4. Develop an intimate relationship with a Japanese speaker. 5. Develop social relationships with native speakers. 6. Take language classes. 7. Work with a tutor 8. Consume large quantities of Japanese cultural materials 9. Focus considerably on phonetics. There are other factors that I've probably forgotten. Feel free to add or correct. If this is all done right, I'm sure that the results will be excellent. The problem is that for the 99% of us, all these success factors rarely come together. Most of us have other things to do besides learning a foreign language. If I devoted the next 10 years of my life to learning Japanese, I'm sure I'd do a credible job. Since I don't have that time, I'll just have to settle for something less than perfection. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5163 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 56 of 255 13 December 2010 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I'd remove 2, 4, 6 and 9 for the following reasons: 2) Linguistic knowledge is not necessary for language acquisition. Kids certainly don't need it. 4) If you mean getting a boyfriend or girlfriend, it's definitely not necessary. Bilingual people are not polygamous by definition. 6) No one learns a language to fluency or near-native level by attending classes. Classes concentrate on teaching general things to a large public. 9) I'd replace it with "Care about pronunciation". I'd replace these with: 2) A desire to fit in the culture, and to sound like a native speaker and be thought of as one. (if you care too much about your own identity, you'll fail) 4) An inquisitive mind and the desire to learn the language to perfection. (if you don't care about doing it right, you'll fail). 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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