Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

The importance of a good accent

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
255 messages over 32 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 9 ... 31 32 Next >>
Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 5140 days ago

3971 posts - 7747 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 65 of 255
13 December 2010 at 8:30pm | IP Logged 
Aineko wrote:
Arekkusu wrote:

As for being a professional translator, most translators I work with don't have native
accents in their second language

Do you necessarily find them worse translators than you are? :)

Translation being a written task, and since people translate into their first language, no, there is no correlation between accent and ability to perform the job.

Aineko wrote:
What you keep failing to explain is 'why?'. Why would someone need to spend all that time and hard work if language serves him well in all aspects of life? Why would he do that instead of getting a joy of learning another language to a high level?


You really think working on perfecting your accent would require an additional investment similar to learning an entirely different language? That's an odd calculation. If we thought that way, we'd learn less grammar and less words just so we could learn other languages instead. Is the present tense in 2 languages better than the subjunctive in one? It doesn't work like that; a language is a complete system. If you want to learn part of it only, then that's your prerogative, but I've never heard of anyone deliberately skimping on one part of a language with the intention of improving another instead.

Aineko wrote:
As I said many times here - people who want and achieve native accent should be praised because that is a great achievement. But these people should also understand that not being bothered with your foreign accent doesn't by default mean you are a careless language learner and you don't care about your vocab and grammar as well. That's simply a prejudice.   

I didn't say that. I did however say that we can't talk about how rare it is for people to achieve a native-like accent when most people are not concerned with doing such a thing.
1 person has voted this message useful



Aineko
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5207 days ago

238 posts - 442 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin

 
 Message 66 of 255
13 December 2010 at 8:31pm | IP Logged 
tommus wrote:

That describes me. I never liked to be an "actor".

Well, you see, I thought this is my case (coz when I tried to imitate Kiwi accent, it
just seemed weird to me) till I went to Buenos Aires. In just few days my accent
started to change to 'more Argentinian-like' and I was happy with that. But it was
happening effortlessly, without hours and hours of 'listen and repeat'. And if I was to
live in BA, I would be happy to pursue this change further, but I'm certainly not going
to sit at home, spending hours on attempt to sound like una porteña :). I'm happier to
work on my Russian, instead. Same thing for Scottish accent - I'd like to learn it, if
it could happen more-less effortlessly (that is to say if I lived in Scotland). But
English in general sounds very blend to my ear, I don't like it and I probably would
have never learnt it if it hadn't been the international language. So, I like all those
accent that, to my ear, introduce liveliness in English (like Scottish or Maori
accent). Whenever I try to do anything else, it just feels weird and false.
1 person has voted this message useful



Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 5140 days ago

3971 posts - 7747 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 67 of 255
13 December 2010 at 8:34pm | IP Logged 
tommus wrote:
s_allard wrote:
critical success factors. Here are some of my suggestions:

1. A talent for mimicking foreign sounds.


I think a part of that is good hearing. [...]
You can't say what you can't hear. It would be interesting to know if people who have excellent pronunciation in two or more languages have always had, and continue to enjoy, excellent hearing.

I've lost 30% of my hearing (neurological causes) and I wear hearing aids. Back in university when I studied many languages (including English), I didn't even wear any yet. I'd have to sit in the front to hear what was being said.

So no, excellent hearing is not a necessity.

Edited by Arekkusu on 13 December 2010 at 9:20pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 5140 days ago

3971 posts - 7747 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 68 of 255
13 December 2010 at 8:46pm | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:
Aineko wrote:
What you keep failing to explain is 'why?'. Why would someone need to spend all that time and hard work if language serves him well in all aspects of life? Why would he do that instead of getting a joy of learning another language to a high level?

Well here's a "why" for you:
Received wisdom says we learn a new phoneme when we hear it enough, but I think that's upside down.

For me, it feels like I can only learn to hear a phoneme if I can pronounce it myself. [...] Would I have learnt to hear it if I hadn't been saying it? I don't believe so. As I said a short while ago, if you pronounce two different things the same, your brain's going to learn them as the same thing.

I second that. I often analyze languages' sounds by producing them and then trying to feel how the tongue is placed for each, and all the little details that make the sound what it is (duration, nasality, etc.). I copy the noise natives make, I analyze it, then I internalize it as that specific phoneme.

For instance, Japanese pitch is hard to discern for most learners, but if you make the deliberate effort of producing and distinguishing the patterns in play (low-high vs. high-low), you are inevitably internalizing the distinction between the two. And this internalization comes quite rapidly, to the point where you might hear something you can't discern, but when you repeat it, what it is becomes obvious.

Edited by Arekkusu on 13 December 2010 at 8:47pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Aineko
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5207 days ago

238 posts - 442 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin

 
 Message 69 of 255
13 December 2010 at 8:46pm | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:

Well here's a "why" for you:

you explanation does not address my question I repeated here few time: if you can live
in a foreign country, have rich social and cultural life in a foreign language, be
professionally and emotionally fulfilled, everybody understands you and you understand
everyone - then, again, "why would you bother with a native-like accent?"?

Quote:
Received wisdom says we learn a new phoneme when we hear it enough, but I think
that's upside down.

For me, it feels like I can only learn to hear a phoneme if I can pronounce it myself.

We are not all the same. I do not have much troubles with phonemes, but I have huge
trouble with imitating intonation of a phrase. I hear difference between my and Kiwi
intonation, but I can't reproduce it (unless I practice and practice and think about it
all the time). Which brings me back to the question 'why would I bother?'.

Edited by Aineko on 13 December 2010 at 8:47pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 5140 days ago

3971 posts - 7747 votes 
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian

 
 Message 70 of 255
13 December 2010 at 8:49pm | IP Logged 
Aineko wrote:
Which brings me back to the question 'why would I bother?'.

Do you mean that you don't want to bother, or that you give up?

1 person has voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5189 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 71 of 255
13 December 2010 at 8:58pm | IP Logged 
Since we are talking here about accent, it may be useful to make some fundamental technical distinctions. Basically, when we are talking about sounds of a language we look at mode of articulation, pitch, contrasting sounds and the distribution of sounds or phonemes. Then we look at the stream of sounds in terms on intonation, rhythm, stress and the interaction of sounds when put into sequences.

Accent as we use it here refers to the influence of one sound system (L1) on the reproduction of the target sound system (L2). In a sense there is a kind of conflict between the two systems. In the beginning we naturally try to reproduce the sounds of L2 with the system of L1, and usually with disastrous results. This is often called negative transfer. Typically, we will have the greatest difficulty with the sounds and the distinctions that do not exists in L1. French speakers will have difficulty with -th and the i in with or it in English. English speakers will have a problem with certain French vowels and with certain Spanish consonants. And of course nearly everybody has a big problem with tonal languages.

Although we tend to concentrate on individual sounds and words, it is extremely important to pay attention to stress and intonation patterns. This is actually often the key to sounding like a native speaker. It's how you put all the sounds together.

Learning to master the sound system of L2 involves in a sense reprogramming the very complex mechanism of sound production. Those who believe in the critical period hypothesis think that after the ages of around 12 to 15 the brain is no longer able to acquire language with the same facility. An important point in this hypothesis is that second-language acquisition during this period is similar to first-language acquisition. This is why it is so easy.

On the other hand, once the critical period has passed, second-language acquisition is negatively impacted by the presence of L1. Even if one does not accept the critical period hypothesis, it is very obvious that negative transfer from L1 is the big problem for adults.

1 person has voted this message useful



Aineko
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5207 days ago

238 posts - 442 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin

 
 Message 72 of 255
13 December 2010 at 9:01pm | IP Logged 
Arekkusu wrote:
Aineko wrote:
Arekkusu wrote:

As for being a professional translator, most translators I work with don't have native
accents in their second language

Do you necessarily find them worse translators than you are? :)

Translation being a written task, and since people translate into their first language,
no, there is no correlation between accent and ability to perform the job.

Quote:
Aineko wrote:
As I said many times here - people who want and achieve native accent
should be praised because that is a great achievement. But these people should also
understand that not being bothered with your foreign accent doesn't by default mean you
are a careless language learner and you don't care about your vocab and grammar as well.
That's simply a prejudice.   

I didn't say that.

Quote:
You really think working on perfecting your accent would require an additional
investment similar to learning an entirely different language? That's an odd calculation.
If we thought that way, we'd learn less grammar and less words just so we could learn
other languages instead. Is the present tense in 2 languages better than the subjunctive
in one?
It doesn't work like that; a language is a complete system. If you want to
learn part of it only, then that's your prerogative, but I've never heard of anyone
deliberately skimping on one part of a language with the intention of improving another
instead.

well, there you go, you just said it again :). you compare people who don't care about
native-like accent with people who don't care about native-like vocab and grammar. And I'm
trying to tell you that this is a wrong comparison. Many people (as we can see on this
thread) care greatly about reaching native-like vocab and grammar, but less about reaching
native-like accent. You keep saying that if someone does not care about native-like accent
it is same as not caring about vocab and grammar. Functionality of the language proves you
wrong (so many people with foreign accents being fully functional in lives in foreign
countries).
as for the time frame - in my case, with few hours a day, I can get to the point of being
able to read classics in a new language in less than 4 months (experience with Spanish).
However, I'm way worse with accents and I'm sure it would slow me down greatly and keep
away from what makes me happy in language learning, maybe even to the point where I would
lose an interest for that language. Even if I do get some enjoyment from sounding native,
it is nowhere close to enjoyment of understanding and being understood.



2 persons have voted this message useful



This discussion contains 255 messages over 32 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 810 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.3477 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.