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The Motivational Plateau

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
11 messages over 2 pages: 1 2 
Emme
Triglot
Senior Member
Italy
Joined 5135 days ago
980 posts - 1594 votes 
Speaks: Italian*, English, German
Studies: Russian, Swedish, French

 
 Message 9 of 11
12 December 2010 at 12:42am | IP Logged 
It seems you’ve really reached a plateau and it’s often difficult to do that next step forward that gives you the feeling that you are no longer stuck. I think what Splog says about finding what works for you and what you can stick with is very important, but from experience I also know that often that is not enough. It’s easy to say that you intend to watch X number of movies or read in Italian for X hours, but even if you manage to actually do that, you won’t necessarily be aware of how much progress you’ve made by doing so (and you will progress, no doubt about that) and therefore your frustration is bound to continue.

From what you write in your first post, it’s clear that you intend to work on grammar, vocabulary, and spoken Italian, and from your posts in the Italian subforum I can see that you are at that awkward stage where you are no longer a beginner but you haven’t mastered the language enough to feel confident when using it. That’s a very normal phase in one’s foreign language acquisition and the important thing right now is not to get so discouraged that you give up your studies. So for your first “big wall” I can only encourage you to keep a positive attitude and to persevere: if you keep at it for the next 8 months you will certainly make huge progress in Italian and will probably be more than able to have a conversation with some friendly Italians (and I can assure you that most Italians are so happy when foreigners learn our language that they go out of their way to accommodate his or her difficulties and make a conversation possible).

For the second “big wall” I wonder whether it’s time to consider adopting a new textbook / method / course. I’ve noticed that in this forum traditional textbooks and methods are often snubbed and most prefer to dive into authentic materials as soon as they have covered the basics of the new language. I’m not saying that what they do is wrong, but personally I find that working with a textbook aimed at the right level is way more efficient than just tackle any authentic material with a hit-or-miss approach. If a textbook is good, it should introduce new materials (grammar and vocabulary) with a well thought-out progression, offer enough activities to help one master those materials and practice all four skills (reading, writing, listening, speaking), and have built-in revisions. And of course, by working through such a course, it becomes very easy to notice how much you improve and how many things you learn: you experience again that fantastic feeling you have when you first learn a language and after each study session you can say: ‘Today I’ve learnt 40 new words and now I can introduce myself / describe my daily routine / …’. Of course now the topics are much more advanced and you may learn how to talk about the environment or the mass media, but still you have the feeling that word after word, topic after topic you are building your language proficiency. And that, I’m sure, would give you a great boost in confidence and dispel the idea of being stuck in a loop without a direction.

If you are interested, you should probably try to gauge your actual language level maybe by taking a placement test such as this or this (under Italienska: start with Italienska A and if you get more than 33 points move on to Italieska B and then, in case, to Italienska C) and then start searching for a book that corresponds to your needs. Unfortunately I can’t suggest any from first-hand experience, but if you search the forum I’m quite confident that some Italian learners have posted their opinions about the various books they have used. Meanwhile you can have a look (and download some sample pages and audio) at these publishers’ websites:
Alma Edizioni
Edizioni Edilingua
Guerra Edizioni

I don’t know whether anything in this long and rambling post is helpful but I wish you good luck with your studies!

PS. Even if I believe a good textbook is a great tool for language learning, I don’t dismiss authentic materials at all. In fact, I think you should use one alongside the others as soon as possible. And I think that watching movies dubbed into Italian instead of Italian movies is a great idea: first because the in-studio dubbing often gives a clearer audio than the live soundtrack from the original shooting and secondly because usually standard Italian is used in dubbing (clear pronunciation, no regional accent, no dialect, not too much slang etc.) which is easier to understand – even for native speakers!



Edited by Emme on 12 December 2010 at 12:43am
4 persons have voted this message useful



Legend
Newbie
Australia
Joined 5317 days ago
38 posts - 41 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 10 of 11
12 December 2010 at 3:13am | IP Logged 
Emme wrote:
It seems you’ve really reached a plateau and it’s often difficult to do that next step forward that gives you the feeling that you are no longer stuck. I think what Splog says about finding what works for you and what you can stick with is very important, but from experience I also know that often that is not enough. It’s easy to say that you intend to watch X number of movies or read in Italian for X hours, but even if you manage to actually do that, you won’t necessarily be aware of how much progress you’ve made by doing so (and you will progress, no doubt about that) and therefore your frustration is bound to continue.

From what you write in your first post, it’s clear that you intend to work on grammar, vocabulary, and spoken Italian, and from your posts in the Italian subforum I can see that you are at that awkward stage where you are no longer a beginner but you haven’t mastered the language enough to feel confident when using it. That’s a very normal phase in one’s foreign language acquisition and the important thing right now is not to get so discouraged that you give up your studies. So for your first “big wall” I can only encourage you to keep a positive attitude and to persevere: if you keep at it for the next 8 months you will certainly make huge progress in Italian and will probably be more than able to have a conversation with some friendly Italians (and I can assure you that most Italians are so happy when foreigners learn our language that they go out of their way to accommodate his or her difficulties and make a conversation possible).

For the second “big wall” I wonder whether it’s time to consider adopting a new textbook / method / course. I’ve noticed that in this forum traditional textbooks and methods are often snubbed and most prefer to dive into authentic materials as soon as they have covered the basics of the new language. I’m not saying that what they do is wrong, but personally I find that working with a textbook aimed at the right level is way more efficient than just tackle any authentic material with a hit-or-miss approach. If a textbook is good, it should introduce new materials (grammar and vocabulary) with a well thought-out progression, offer enough activities to help one master those materials and practice all four skills (reading, writing, listening, speaking), and have built-in revisions. And of course, by working through such a course, it becomes very easy to notice how much you improve and how many things you learn: you experience again that fantastic feeling you have when you first learn a language and after each study session you can say: ‘Today I’ve learnt 40 new words and now I can introduce myself / describe my daily routine / …’. Of course now the topics are much more advanced and you may learn how to talk about the environment or the mass media, but still you have the feeling that word after word, topic after topic you are building your language proficiency. And that, I’m sure, would give you a great boost in confidence and dispel the idea of being stuck in a loop without a direction.

If you are interested, you should probably try to gauge your actual language level maybe by taking a placement test such as this or this (under Italienska: start with Italienska A and if you get more than 33 points move on to Italieska B and then, in case, to Italienska C) and then start searching for a book that corresponds to your needs. Unfortunately I can’t suggest any from first-hand experience, but if you search the forum I’m quite confident that some Italian learners have posted their opinions about the various books they have used. Meanwhile you can have a look (and download some sample pages and audio) at these publishers’ websites:
Alma Edizioni
Edizioni Edilingua
Guerra Edizioni

I don’t know whether anything in this long and rambling post is helpful but I wish you good luck with your studies!

PS. Even if I believe a good textbook is a great tool for language learning, I don’t dismiss authentic materials at all. In fact, I think you should use one alongside the others as soon as possible. And I think that watching movies dubbed into Italian instead of Italian movies is a great idea: first because the in-studio dubbing often gives a clearer audio than the live soundtrack from the original shooting and secondly because usually standard Italian is used in dubbing (clear pronunciation, no regional accent, no dialect, not too much slang etc.) which is easier to understand – even for native speakers!



Geez, thank you so much for this, for going to all the effort and linking that you did for me. Thanks a lot!

I'm in the "intermediate" level on the first ranking system you gave me, the Oxford one. I haven't done the second yet, but I'll get around to that. This was a good idea, and also might be very handy in terms of tracking my progress so that when I do it again later on, I can see that if I have actually come somewhere, it will show up in my results.

I own a lot of movies, one in Italian itself, and a few of them have Italian language options. I will get to watching some of them today and later, along with getting other films for this purpose too.

I will look into those courses you suggested, and search for the recommendations of other members as well. I do occassionally listen to Pimsleur courses, but it gets annoying when they tell me something I already know, and then repeat it for five minutes. What I need from Pimsleur is to understand the construction of words in a sentence, not the conversation because I know that in the long run, knowing how to make my own sentences are going to help me far more than knowing a scripted conversation will. Plus, they teach you to speak in the third person all the time:

Narrator: "How do you say: "what would you like to drink?"
Me: "Cosa vorresti bere?"
Narrator: "Lei che cosa vorebbe bere?"
Me: "Oh come on."

I don't want to sound like a tourist, and as I'm sure you all know, that's where the importance of grammar study comes in. So your suggestions are very, very welcome and thanks for telling me about them.

People say it's 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration, but I've got to tell you that I think that's wrong. Without the inspiration, you're not going to perspire. Without wanting to study, you're not going to study. I don't think you can prioritise one over the other, because without either, you're not going to get anywhere. I'd say it's 50% each.

Anyway, thanks again!
1 person has voted this message useful



Legend
Newbie
Australia
Joined 5317 days ago
38 posts - 41 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 11 of 11
12 December 2010 at 2:43pm | IP Logged 
I write this as I watch the movie with the dubs.

It is doing three things:

- Letting me hear the pronuncation of words, and helping a lot.
- Letting me hear new words and phrases.
- Allowing me to see that my Italian is improving because I am understanding the dialogue (and it's incredibly quick) with the most clarity I have ever had before.

I'm writing down all of the new phrases I learn, and all of the new words I pick up. I have a favourite so far: "sbruffone".

Very encouraging. I suppose another 'thank you' won't hurt. Thank you.

Edited by Legend on 12 December 2010 at 3:13pm


1 person has voted this message useful



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