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How difficult is C2? | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | Difficulty | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Immersion, Schools & Certificates |  | |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5036 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 17 of 24 02 February 2011 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
Any tests like that are fatally flawed. Could you please provide real life examples? I'm not saying what you claim isn't true per se, but I'm certain it's not true for the vast majority of qualifications. If it were, you'd be much more or less likely to fail a C2 test depending on you specialization field, and that would automatically imply that we'd have myriads of different C2 tests for different fields, when there are actually as many as ... ok, just a few. The thing is, any test for the higher levels requires a broad vocabulary, which should be expected anyway because they're typically required for higher qualifications. Higher qualifications are usually held by people with a high education level, and such people tend to have a broad vocabulary, thus closing the circle. So, it is a matter of education in the end. And before you ask, yes, I think there is a close correlation between education and language proficiency; it is independent of being a native, and it shows once you're beyond a certain threshold. I recently had this girl in a class who didn't know what 'burning' (as a noun) would be. An innocent vocabulary gap? I translated it as 'combustion' which is a cognate in her native Spanish, and her response was 'any other translations so I don't need to keep learning new words (in Spanish)?'. Not a very technical item, I would say, yet completely unknown to a supposed adult who on top of it was adamant about not expanding her vocabulary. And that's just one example out of many. Call me whatever you want, but for me it's no wonder such people wouldn't pass certain tests while foreign speakers would.
Again this is expected from those aspiring to function in an academic environment or the like, typical places to require the higher qualifications. I'll agree that this isn't definitely part of language abilities as such, so it would be kind of killing two birds with one stone. Edited by mrwarper on 03 February 2011 at 4:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReachingOut Pentaglot Groupie Greece Joined 5047 days ago 57 posts - 81 votes Speaks: English*, German, GreekB2, French, Romanian Studies: Italian | Message 18 of 24 03 February 2011 at 11:57am | IP Logged | |||||
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^ Here is a site with examples of the Cambridge Proficiency exam (CPE)
http://www.flo-joe.co.uk/cpe/students/tests/index.htm It's true that a person with an academic background will have a wider vocabulary and be able to deal easier with the kind of tasks set on the paper. Also it depends on lifestyle. If you are the sort of person who reads a wide range of subject matter or watches a lot of documentaries, you are more likely to be successful. I teach English as a Foreign Language here in Greece and have seen many examples of this kind of test. I have come across quite a few articles in the tests dealing with unfamiliar subjects to me with specific vocabulary I don't know, though I have to say that these words are often explained in the text or their meaning is obvious from the context. Most tests at this level are aimed at adults with an academic background. Unfortunately here in Greece the is tremendous pressure on school students to learn a foreign language at least to C1 level, so most of the candidates for C2 level are school students aged between 16 and 18. At this age most students are simply not interested in reading technical or scientific articles and don't watch documentaries on TV, they have other intesests. Very few students have the background knowledge necessary to cope with this kind of exam. Also, they may be expected to express opinions on environmental or social issues which aren't necessarily part of standard school education or of which they have no personal experience. For me the best exams are not the English examinations, but those of the Goethe-Institut for German. The Goethe-Institut recognises the problems faced by younger learners and have designed exams especially for younger age groups (though as far as I can see only for B1 level so far). Anyway, this is a step in the right direction. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5036 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 19 of 24 03 February 2011 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
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OK, so it's a targeting problem!
The current CPE tests strike me as perfectly fit for any reasonably educated adult -maybe there could be some vocabulary problems, but again, glossaries are usually provided-, but certainly not for every youngster. I have to agree on that, indeed. So, if you make people the test wasn't aimed at attempt to take it anyway, you're creating a problem that isn't in the test itself. Shame on the Greek authorities for that. I guess if the Goethe people have addressed it, it's probably because they faced it in the past, so it'd be a good idea for Cambridge to follow their example. Edited by mrwarper on 03 February 2011 at 4:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReachingOut Pentaglot Groupie Greece Joined 5047 days ago 57 posts - 81 votes Speaks: English*, German, GreekB2, French, Romanian Studies: Italian | Message 20 of 24 04 February 2011 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Actually it's not the Greek authorities who are to blame, but the parents of the students and even the students themselves. The job market in Greece is very competitive with a huge emphasis on academic qualifications. Where 10 years ago B2 was considered an adequate level of achievement, now it has been pushed up to at least C1. Parents put pressure on their kids to achieve at least this level before they finish school. This has nothing to do with the state education system. Most parents send their kids to private schools to gain extra qualifications in foreign languages.
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| yawn Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5236 days ago 141 posts - 209 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, FrenchC2, SpanishC2 Studies: GermanB1 | Message 21 of 24 08 February 2011 at 6:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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As a teenager who's already reached the C2 level in a foreign language (French) and will be going for the C2 test
in Spanish later this year, I just wanted to reply to a comment that was made earlier regarding the limited nature of such tests. I'm a high school student and will be entering college next year, so I've seen many, MANY arguments both for and against standardized testing. Of course both language and knowledge are unlimited, and intelligence and aptitude aren't quantifiable either, so there are always bound to be flaws in those types of tests. However, they are still valid because even though they aren't perfect, they still do a pretty good job overall of determining a person's ability. I still remember the portion of the French C2 exam where I had to read 3 long articles about a scientific ethical debate and then write a 1,000 word argumentative essay based on that. That test did not just measure how well I knew French; the B2 test was more suited for that task. What the C2 test did was to assess how I could effectively express my opinions and to construct a logical, well-supported argument in a foreign language, which goes far beyond the level of what most language learners aim for. On the one hand, you can argue that to prepare for a test implies a limit on what you can study; on the other, you can argue that due to the unpredictability of the subject matter tested (I could easily have been given another issue to discuss on test day) and the fact that the formulation of a well-constructed opinion requires a vast amount of knowledge of ways to express a certain feeling, reaching the C2 level probably requires a level that is equal to a native's or at least close to it. One last thing about the "native level" comment (though this may not be valid since it is only a personal anecdote): I've talked to native French speakers and they've all told me that they feel like they're talking to another native speaker when they talk to me. :D 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReachingOut Pentaglot Groupie Greece Joined 5047 days ago 57 posts - 81 votes Speaks: English*, German, GreekB2, French, Romanian Studies: Italian | Message 22 of 24 08 February 2011 at 10:34am | IP Logged | |||||
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^ This sounds like a very useful test for asssessing the suitability of a candidate who is planning to study at a French university as a university student would be expected to accomplish this kind of task. Unfortunately the Greek educational system here is geared towards learning information parrot - fashion and doesn't seem to encourage much independent critical thought, that's why many students find the kind of tasks used in the C2 exam difficult.
Vawn, I wish you good luck in your Spanish exam! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| yawn Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5236 days ago 141 posts - 209 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, FrenchC2, SpanishC2 Studies: GermanB1 | Message 23 of 24 09 February 2011 at 4:51am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thank you! :) And I know the font on this forum isn't very clear sometimes, but my username is actually "yawn", not
"vawn". It's this silly username that I made up when I registered and now I'm stuck with it. Sigh... note to self - think of more intelligent names the next time you register on a forum... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReachingOut Pentaglot Groupie Greece Joined 5047 days ago 57 posts - 81 votes Speaks: English*, German, GreekB2, French, Romanian Studies: Italian | Message 24 of 24 09 February 2011 at 11:27am | IP Logged | |||||
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Ok, thanks - it's "Yawn" I've noted that! I guess you must have been really bored when you registered or otherwise had a really long day! :-))
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