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Undelivered language heritage | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| indiana83 Groupie United States ipracticecanto.wordp Joined 5300 days ago 92 posts - 121 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Cantonese, Italian | Message 33 of 46 17 January 2011 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
My dad's mom calls her dialect of German as "Pennsylvania Slop Dutch", which is weird since she is in the state of Indiana and the family has always been in Indiana. She had the chance once to speak to distant family who were visiting from Germany, and they said that honestly her dialect sounded like a child speaking with poor grammar.
Thanks for the links. My dad's opinion is that "Pennsylvania Slop Dutch" is just a demeaning way of saying Low German or Plattsdeutsch. I'd be interested to know how true that is. My grandma said that my grandpa was from one of the families in town that spoke both Low German (or in her words "Pennsylvania Slop Dutch") and High German - so that he could serve as an interpreter in WW2. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5145 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 34 of 46 17 January 2011 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I suppose I could see Frisian as a language that’s part of my heritage but wasn’t handed down to me. I don’t think this is all that surprising though, since the last of my family who really lived in the Frisian countryside were my great-great-grandparents and a language can only survive for so many generations once people move away from the area where it is spoken.
Nonetheless, I think it’s a great shame that people don’t see the need to speak their native languages with their children. Bilingualism is such a great gift to give to a child and it makes me angry to think that people were and still are ignorantly discouraged from giving it to their children. If I ever have children, I hope to be able to teach them English but I would never do it at the expense of speaking Dutch to them. I just can’t imagine speaking to my own children in a language that’s not my native one. Not to mention not knowing Dutch would effectively prevent them from having any kind of deep relationship with their extended family.
I thought this was an interesting observation. I love the English language and English-speaking world as well but having monolingual English-speaking children would be a nightmare come true for me. ;-) I think I would hate to see my own children so cut off from their heritage. Edited by ReneeMona on 20 January 2011 at 10:08pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5144 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 35 of 46 17 January 2011 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
You would be surprized. In Israel I met a family who spoke Ladino, which is the old Spanish spoken by Jews who were thrown out of Spain in 1492. When I suddenly heard words that I had only read in 500 year old Spanish texts, it would be the understatement of the century to say that my jaw dropped. Even stranger was that over the centuries the family had been forced to flee first to Italy, then to Greece, then to Morocco, then to France and then finally they had come to Israel, AND THE FATHER OF THE FAMILY STILL SPOKE ALL THESE LANGUAGES. They had all been brought along through the centuries as a family legacy, but as far as I understood he had been brought up only with French. His son, who was married to my friend, also spoke Ladino, but not all the other languages. I was however still duly impressed. Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 18 January 2011 at 12:08am 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5145 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 36 of 46 17 January 2011 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
Wow, that's amazing. I stand corrected. ;-) Perhaps I should resent the fact that no one in my family speaks Frisian after all... In fact, if it goes back that many centuries, I might as well resent that I wasn't taught German or French either. Edited by ReneeMona on 18 January 2011 at 12:01am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5144 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 37 of 46 18 January 2011 at 12:07am | IP Logged | |||||
I do not think you should blame your family,:) This case was as far as I know rather unique. Generally I would agree with your statement. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ester Groupie Joined 5477 days ago 64 posts - 114 votes Speaks: Modern Hebrew | Message 38 of 46 18 January 2011 at 12:43am | IP Logged | |||||
The situation you describe, from what I understand, used to be more of a rule than an exception even a few generations ago. Not only Jews moved a lot, changing countries, but they also often had very tight connections with other Jews in other countries, so some amount of polyglottery - even if not with all languages spoken to a very high, literate level - has traditionally been present. There are various possible combinations, based on where somebody was from - there were quite a few Hebrew/Arabic/Spanish(/French) combinations, then Romanian/Yiddish/Hungarian/something-Slavic combinations, English/Yiddish/Hebrew is still a "standard combination" among many American Jews, sometimes with Russian too, etc., often accompanied by smatterings of another language or two learned through the school system and/or travelling and having contacts with other Jews from abroad. It used to be very common in fact. "Hebraization" of Israel has been a double-edged sword from a linguistic point of view: as much as Modern Hebrew united the nation from all parts of the world and brought about a shared linguistic identity in the spirit of the shared culture, it also contributed to disappearing of other languages, often willingly. Most of the "second generation" Israelis, and especially "third generation", are out of touch with the languages their ancestors came with to Israel. I know more examples than I can count in which the native language wasn't passed on to the next generation - in fact, it seems that the situation is now reverse from what it has traditionally been like, with the exception of Chareidi population which keeps Yiddish alive and with the exception of the ex-USSR immigrants which have in great part kept Russian. The language which probably suffered the most from hebraization has been Yiddish, which has been even actively discouraged from using and which is today a rarity among secular Jews. But I got carried away with examples. I can understand why somebody would not wish to pass the language to one's child if they do not feel "rooted" in that culture - while many people genuinely care about their heritage, there are also many people who treat their background as something "accidental" rather than essential to their view of themselves, so they can imagine themselves fitting in another culture (especially if it's a close one), their children speaking another language and thus adjusting to the new situation, especially if spouses themselves don't share their background. And especially if they're immigrating to an area with a strong imperative to blend in - such as America or Israel, both of which are founded on idea of creating a unique new identity out of the initial differences. Language enthusiasts often quick to "judge" it, but in reality, it's a completely normal process. Many people just don't raise families with an imperative to squeeze in as much heritage diversity as possible - many just wish to switch to the new identity themselves, many find it more practical to speak a new shared language, many feel it would be unnecessary to "burden" their children with their own past and emphasize the differences from the majority culture, many don't even think about it so much and just let things flow. Personally, I can imagine a situation in which I wouldn't pass on a native language to a child. It's not an ideal situation, but it's still perfectly imaginable. I don't think it necessarily has to lead to a child having a messed up "cultural identity" nor that it must lead to serious resentments on the part of the child. I see language as only one among many things I can pass on to my child - just like the knowledge of playing an instrument, or an ability in a particular sport, a passion for folklore, anything else I could share and for this or that reason I can choose to share, or I can opt not to share if the circumstances are such that it doesn't "naturally" pop out. Both are legitimate options in my opinion, as there are so many MUCH more important things to take care of when building a family. On the other hand, I can also understand a bit of a regret on the child's side for not having been given over some part of their heritage which they would prefer to have. Thankfully, in this day and age, with the resources we have at the tip of our fingers and places like this, anyone can make up for what they feel they missed out on. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| SamD Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6469 days ago 823 posts - 987 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 39 of 46 18 January 2011 at 1:39am | IP Logged | |||||
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My brother and I have been talking about this thread. He was born in South Korea and adopted as a baby; English is his first language. He met other immigrants born in Korea and envied them their fluency in Korean. He says that everyone just assumed he spoke fluent Korean and that he didn't speak English. People would go up to him and speak very loud and slow English, and sometimes they'd ask if he were Chinese or Japanese.
Are there any other international adoptees with an undelivered language heritage? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 5935 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 40 of 46 18 January 2011 at 2:37am | IP Logged | |||||
At least anyone can put in an effort towards making up for what might have been. If you're that Korean kid who speaks zero Korean and wants to go back to Korea and talk with Korean guys, well, that's going to be long journey. I think best to put any plans for native like fluency aside for a bit, and aim for being a competent learner of your heritage language. That makes the project a bit more manageable. I really think anyone can reach intermediate/advanced intermediate level. Whether they'll be able to mix it up with natives? I'm just saying not to put your life on hold until that happens. Accept any small improvement as progress. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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