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Arguelles’ Six Most Important Languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| jsun Groupie Joined 4866 days ago 62 posts - 129 votes  | Message 33 of 44 28 January 2011 at 4:08am | IP Logged | ||
Classical Chinese isn't dead. It's still living in idioms. Also, a good command of classical Chinese is good for writings. For example, Chinese refers homosexual as 斷袖分桃. (separate sleeve and share peaches) The following is the original story of "sharing peaches". By studying literary Chinese, you get better understanding of your own culture and language. 彌子瑕愛於衛君。衛國之法，竊駕君車罪刖。 彌子瑕之母疾，人聞，夜往告之。彌子瑕擅 駕君車 而出。君聞之，賢之，曰：「孝哉！爲母之故 ，犯刖罪哉！」君遊果園。彌子瑕食桃而 甘，不盡 而奉君。 君曰：「愛我而忘其口味！」及彌子瑕色衰而 愛弛，得罪於君。君曰：「是故 嘗 矯駕吾 車，又嘗食我以餘桃！」故子瑕之行，未必變 初也。前見賢，後獲罪者，愛憎之生變也。 VOCABULARY (272—307) 272. 彌 M: mí J: biビ, miミ, iyaいや K: mi 미 C: mèih Increasingly. Synonym: 加(47-3). Here, 彌 is part of a two-character surname. Radical 57 (弓). 273. 瑕 M: xiá J: kaカ, kizuきず K: ha 하 C: hàh Flaw, blemish (usually applied to flaws in gems or jewels). Here,瑕 is a personal name. Radical 96 (玉). 272a.彌子瑕 M: mí zǐ xiá J: bishi kaびしか K: mi ja ha 미 자 하 C: mèih jí hàh Mizi Xia (sexual favorite of the ruler of 衛). 274. 衛 M: wèi J: eiエイ K: wi 위 C: waih 1. Wei (a small state in pre-imperial China).* 2. Guards, guardsmen. Radical 144 (行). 275. 法 M: fǎ J: hōホウ, noriのり K: beop 법 C: faat Rule, law, custom. In Buddhist texts, this character is used for "dharma." Radical 85 (水). 276. 竊 M: qiè J: setsuセツ, nusumuぬすむ, hisokaひそか K: jeol 절 C: sit 1. Secretly, without authorization.* 2. To steal 3. "In my own humble way…,” “in my humble opinion.” [adverb making a modest assertion by the speaker] Radical 116 (穴, “cave,” “hole”). 277. 駕 M: jià J: kaカ, gaガ K: ga 가 C: ga To drive a carriage; carriage. Radical 187 (馬). 278. 車 M: jū J: shaシャ, kurumaくるま K: cha 차 , geo거 C: gēui Cart, carriage, chariot. Note the classical “reading pronunciation” in Mandarin. Radical 159 (車)• 279. 刖 M: yuè J: getsuゲツ K: wol 월 C: yuht Cutting off the feet (a form ofpunishment). This character is one of a series of characters that indicate various forms of penal amputation. You won't encounter it very often. Radical 18 (刀). 280. 母 M: mǔ J: boボ, hahaはは K: mo 모 C: móuh Mother. Radical 80 (毋). 281 疾 M: jí J: shitsuシツ, tokkuとっく, hayaiはやい, yamashiiやましい K: jil 질 C: jaht 1. Sick; illness; ache, aching, sore. * 2. Swift; rapidly. 3. To criticize, to hate. Meaning #2 is quite common, but it does not appear in our texts. Radical 104 (广, "illness"). 282 夜 M: yè J: yaヤ, yoよ, yoruよる K: ya 야 C: yeh Night; at night; nightly. Radical 36 (夕, "evening"). 283. 告 M: gào J: kokuコク, tsugeruつげる K: go 고 C: gou To announce, to request; announcement. Radical 30 (口). 284. 擅 M: shàn J: senセン, hoshiimamaほしいまま K: cheon 천 C: sihn To monopolize, to usurp; for ones own use; selfishly. Radical 64 (手). 285. 故 M: gù J: koコ, yueゆえ K: go 고 C: gu 1. Reason; consequently, deliberately; deliberate action.* 2. Previously, before, in the past; precedent, consistency. For a discussion of meaning #1, see 9.5 below. Basically, the character's various uses fall into two categories: meanings related to reason and deliberation (#1), and meanings related to past action and precedent (#2). Radical 66 (夊). 286. 犯 M: fàn J: bonボン, hanハン, okasuおかす K: beom범 C: faahn To commit a crime, to violate, to sin against; offense, crime. Partial synonym: 罪 (177). Radical 94 (犬). 287. 遊 M: yóu J: yūユウ, yuユ, asobuあそぶ, asobiあそび K: yu 유 C: yàuh To travel about, to have fun, to play, to associate [with friends]. This character can refer to children playing or to adults having fun or “hanging out.” Sometimes it's difficult to find an appropriate English equivalent. Radical 162 (辵). 288. 果 M: guǒ J: kaカ, hatasuはたす, hateruはてる, hatashiteはたして K: gwa 과 C: gwó Fruit; to pan out, to result; as expected. "Fruit" was the original meaning of the character (“fruit” is now usually written 菓). The more abstract meanings developed from the idea of something "coming to fruition." Radical 75 (木). 289. 園 M: yuán J: enエン, sonoその K: won 원 C: yùhn Garden. What would be the best translation of 果園 in English? Radical 31 (□). 290. 桃 M: táo J: tōトウ, momoもも K: do 도 C: tòuh Peach, peach tree, peach blossom. Radical 75 (木). 291. 甘 M: gān J: kanカン, amaeruあまえる, amaiあまい K: gam감 C: gām Sweet; to be sweet; to find sweet; to spoil [a child]; to indulge. Radical 99 (甘). 292. 奉 M: fèng J: hōホウ, buブ, tatematsuruたてまつる K: bong 봉 C: fuhng 1. To offer [to a superior], to accept [from a superior]. * 2. Service, attendance. Note that in meaning #1 this character can represent both giving and receiving; the impor¬tant issue is the inferior social status of the subject. Radical 37 (大). 293. 忘 M: wàng J: bōボウ, wasureruわすれる K: mang 망 C: mòhng To forget. Radical 61 (心). 294. 口 M: kǒu J: kuク, kōコウ, kuchiくち K: gu 구 C: háu Mouth, opening. This character can also be used as a measure word for people (like “many mouths to feed" in English). Radical 30 (口). 295. 味 M: wèi J: miミ, ajiwauあじわう, ajiwaiあじわい K: mi C: méi Taste; to taste. Radical 30 (□). 296. 及 M: jí J: kyūキュウ, oyobosuおよぼす, oyobuおよぶ, oyobiおよび K: geup 급 C: kahp 1. To reach to, to extend to’ to come up to [in quality, ability, or virtue]. 2. When the time came that. . . .* 3. And (connects nouns only). This is a very common character, with a wide range of meanings. As a conjunction, it can only connect nouns (like [191-1]). Partial synonym:至 (114) Radical 29 (又). 297. 色 M: sè J: shokuショク, shikiシキ, iroいろ K: saek 색 C: sīk Color, attractiveness, surface appearance; facial expression; sexuality. This character is significant in Chinese thought—it represents the often ephemeral or deceptive external appearance of things. Radical 139 (色). 298. 衰 M: shuāi J: suiスイ, otoroeruおとろえる K: soe 쇠 C: sēui To wither, to decline, to wane, to weaken. Radical 145 (衣). 299. 弛 M: chí J: chiチ, shiシ, tarumuたるむ, tayumuたゆむ K: i 이 C: chìh To grow slack, to grow weak. This character has the “bow” component (弓); it originally applied to a bowstring going slack. Radical 57 (弓). 13a. 得罪於 M: dé zuì yú J: tsumi wo X ni uruつみをXにうる K: deuk joe eo 득 죄 어 C: dāk jeuih yū To offend (lit., “to obtain a crime in relation to”). The phrase as used in this lesson's text does not necessarily imply that an actual crime is committed; in this case, Mizi Xia losing his looks was offensive enough to the king. 300. 矯 M: jiáo J: kyōキョウ K: gyo 교 C: gíu To falsify, to fake, to pretend, to forge; falsely, under false pretenses. Radical 111 (矢). 301. 餘 M: yú J: yoヨ, amariあまり, amaruあまる K: yeo 여 C: yùh Leftover, remaining, extra. Radical 184 (食). 302. 未 M: wèi J: miミ, imadaいまだ K: mi 미 C: meih Not yet, never. This character is one of the most common negative adverbs, second only to in frequency. Radical 75 (木). 303. 必 M: bì J: hitsuヒツ, kanarazuかならず K: pil 필 C: bīt To be necessary, to have to; necessarily. Just as in English, 必 can refer to necessity ("You must do this!") as well as predictability and speculation ("He must have done this yesterday"). Radical 61 (心). 302a. 未必 M: wèi bì J: kanarazushimo -naiかならずしも-ない K: mi pil 미 필 C: meih bīt Not necessarily, not inevitably, not always. 不必 is also common. 304. 變 M: biàn J: henヘン, kawaruかわる, kaeruかえる K: byeon 변 C: bin To change, to alter; change, alteration; disaster. Radical 149 (言). 305. 初 M: chū J: shoショ, hajimeはじめ, hatsuはつ K: cho 초 C: chō Beginning; initially, from the beginning, at first, earlier. Radical 18 (刀). 306. 前 M: qián J: senセン, zenゼン, maeまえ K: jeon 전 C: chìhn Front, formerly, at first; to come forward, to step forward. Note this character's verbal usage, which is also quite common. Radical 18 (刀). 307. 憎 M: zēng J: zōゾウ, nikumuにくむ K: seung 증 C: jāng To hate, to detest. Radical 61 (心). COMMENTARY 9.1. Cultural note: It was common for rulers in ancient China to keep sexual favorites, and such favorites often acquired considerable power over political policies. It was also rather typical for rulers' tastes to run to the bisexual. Homosexual activity was not frowned on per se; rather, philosophers and statesmen often criticized rulers' overindulgence in sexual activity in general. This particular anecdote's purpose is really to stress the unreliability of royal favor bestowed on the basis of physical attraction. This story became one of the most famous early stories of homosexuality in the Chinese tradition, and it is often alluded to in later literature. “To be fond of the leftover peach" became a kind of euphemism to suggest a person's predilections. Edited by jsun on 28 January 2011 at 4:21am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| nebojats Triglot Groupie United States Joined 4977 days ago 89 posts - 120 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Thai Studies: French, Arabic (Written), Mandarin, Italian | Message 34 of 44 28 January 2011 at 4:08am | IP Logged | ||
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MASSIVE EDIT (Accidentally just deleted everything.):
Oh wait a second, I missed this: "In general, I think that well-educated individuals in my ideal world should know..." In an ideal world, sure, no problem! I was getting too worked up about things. My bad... I still hold that it's important to define "educated" before recommending what "educated" people should do, and keep in mind that that definition is relative. In this case, there are plenty of ways to be educated without knowing six languages. I also still have a problem with the terms "exotic" and "own civilization." I'm not saying the "Prof" is advancing some global xenophobic campaign, but you have to admit there's something a little... divisive... antagonistic... about those terms? They would be in the vocabulary list for the first chapter of Orientalism for Dummies. Edited by nebojats on 29 January 2011 at 10:36am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| dmaddock1 Senior Member United States Joined 5214 days ago 174 posts - 426 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Esperanto, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 35 of 44 28 January 2011 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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There are valid criticisms of the Prof. here, but some of the harsher comments are almost bordering on the absurd. Post-modern, faux-philosophical responses like "what does 'educated' (or 'exotic' etc.) mean?" and other semantic trivialities are freshmen arguments indeed. Also, I think it is a misrepresentation of his ideas to frame them as some tacit agenda to turn everyone into a 18th century philologist. Reread his first paragraph.
Of course, he is speaking in generalities here about what a liberal arts language curriculum would look like in a world which valued language diversity and multiculturalism (and in which, presumably, the majority of people would themselves be multilingual), not as a directive for individuals necessarily. Even Arguelles' uses the "scare quotes" on the word "should"... Remember too his hope is that the languages will be used, not as an end of themselves. In a good education, a student learns about the history of his culture (#1 & 2), a profession (#2 & 3), and about the rest of the world (#4). His picks for various regions are such to maximize utility in the general case. The "Why learn the classical language of my culture?", etc. argument is the language equivalent of "Why read Shakespeare?" (if you're a native English speaker). Because it is the underpinning of the cultural context into which you were born and find yourself living. An awareness of context is what separates the educated from the ignorant. Arguelles' ideal is all about providing context in the language domain. I think he would agree that other subjects are just as important in balancing one's knowledge, but that is beyond the scope of his post. Perhaps the criticism that he himself is not balanced like this is a good one. Unless you know him personally I think it would be hard to justify this claim. Of course, one can use one's acquired languages to study any number of subjects. The amazing thing about language learning is that once you get to a certain point, you can kill two birds with one stone and study another subject in an acquired language. (That is indeed what I hope to do.) Until one is very advanced in a subject, one should be able to find introductory and probably intermediate materials in their desired second language. Most likely the L2 is being used as a teaching language somewhere in the world. Study your math/history/science/etc. in an L2. d. 13 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ilperugino Pentaglot Groupie Portugal Joined 4955 days ago 56 posts - 75 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Italian, Spanish, French Studies: Mandarin | Message 36 of 44 28 June 2011 at 1:19am | IP Logged | ||
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Well, I couldn´t understand why all this confusion about "what does he refer to when speaking of educated people" and such.
If we could learn six languages what would they be? That is a quite valid point. But please in the name of sacred things don´t lower the bar. Six is ok. If you think otherwise don´t get angry. Some people get by just with a foreign language, some others like challenges. Alexander Arguelles belongs to the second. And to which will you want to belong? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6331 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 37 of 44 28 June 2011 at 3:53am | IP Logged | ||
Yes, that is indeed quite amazing. Which do you plan to use for this - Esperanto or Ancient Greek? 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Saim Pentaglot Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4864 days ago 124 posts - 215 votes Speaks: Serbo-Croatian, English*, Catalan, Spanish, Polish Studies: Dutch, Portuguese, Italian, Occitan, Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic (Maghribi), French, Modern Hebrew, Ukrainian, Slovenian | Message 38 of 44 28 June 2011 at 4:01am | IP Logged | ||
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No way am I going to learn any classical languages unless they're used in diglossia along
with a vernacular. I'd much rather spend the hundreds of hours to become competent in Ancient Greek and Latin on a language that I could actually use to communicate and connect with people. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| dmaddock1 Senior Member United States Joined 5214 days ago 174 posts - 426 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Esperanto, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 39 of 44 28 June 2011 at 4:40am | IP Logged | ||
Hmm, how should I choose to interpret this? It sounds very snarky and condescending, but I can't see that I said anything which would warrant such. Or is it just that my language choices make me appear stupid in your eyes? Or maybe you earnestly do want to know. Well, I'm just going to pretend you're serious... Both. I very much enjoy Esperanto's belles lettres. In particular, I am using it to read the literature of several small national languages which I have no intention of learning. I am putting my Greek to good use studying the history of early christianity & philosophy. I would like to work through Euclid's Elements in the original but I'm not quite ready to tackle that yet. Of course, I could mention that I am also studying Italian which is not listed on my profile, but that might imply that the other two weren't sufficient vehicles for studying subjects other than about the languages themselves. d. 9 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Leurre Bilingual Pentaglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5206 days ago 219 posts - 372 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Korean, Haitian Creole, SpanishC2 Studies: Japanese | Message 40 of 44 28 June 2011 at 6:45am | IP Logged | ||
I'm not sure what you mean by faux-philosophical here, but I am slightly amused that you use 'post-modern' as if to imply that it equates to some sort of triviality. That's not a snide comment or anything, I'm not attached to post modernism particularly, it was just amusing. The problem is that 'educated' takes on a certain value, and it naturally becomes interesting to know what that value is. Furthermore when one says "An educated person should/ought to/would ideally/generally does/ know six languages, in four particular categories", then you can't help but ask yourself if you are educated if you only know five, if you are not educated if you know six, but in 3 categories, and generally what is the relationship (sufficient, necessary 등) between knowing certain languages in certain categories and being educated. It seems to me that that is a central concern when talking about what that professor said regarding languages. Also I can't help myself, and at the risk of becoming one of the people who clog up discussions that should have been resolved years ago (like half the posts on this forum, really), I'll add that equating learning the classical language of your culture is not really the same as reading Shakespeare at all. One could firstly read Shakespeare in another language and get not a false idea of these 'underpinnings of the cultural context in which you are born'. Also there is all the universal present in Shakespeare, the cross and trans cultural, which makes it elude any one culture and which, it is my understanding, is the reason we still read him today. It seems as though with the idea of one's culture and ancient languages, we need to ask the question of what ones culture is, and how closely that relates to an ancient language. How many English speakers feel the influence of, much less the need to learn old English? Does not knowing Old English impede one's knowledge and access to knowledge of a certain time period, of a history, a literature? It's not so clear that that is the case. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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