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10,000 hours of input | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5456 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes  Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 33 of 60 14 February 2011 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The idea of the 10,000 hours principle is that 10,000 hours are needed to reach
expertise. It seems about right for me in language learning as in any other field. Of course, you can become very good in many fields in much less, but would you be an expert? An expert is not somebody who can "get by", but rather is at the top of their game. I like Niels Bohr's definition, and it is relevant here: "An expert is a person that has made every possible mistake within his or her field." You need a lot of time to make a lot of mistakes and to learn from them. Edited by Splog on 14 February 2011 at 2:30pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5085 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 34 of 60 14 February 2011 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, this is almost certainly true.
Sorry, but I answered a completely different question: How much audio input you need for listening comprehension. If you change the question you make me a blatant liar who claims one can achieve native abilities in 100 hours, this is not what I said.
I already answered this one, but in plain words: Dreams are dreams, if you study Japanese all day, well, you will dream something Japanese related, no breakthrough, no milestone. If I watch Sophie Marceau movies, my dreams may be filled with exciting visions and phantasies, but I am not one step closer to marrying her, or whatever would come to your mind ... How long now for becoming a native? I don't know, my abilities are not anywhere there in any of my languages, I don't know people who became natives via learning, there must be some somewhere, but why is this so important for so many people? Is it the idea that fluency, whatever it is, is the same as native ability? It isn't. 10 000 hours? Well, this or anything else, I disagree with Splog that this is a number of any significance. If you ask me then the principle is that it takes a long time to become an expert, yes, of course, who doesn't know this, we always knew this and I don't see what some singular, even "scientific" claim should add here. From a practical point of view I prefer to think like Huliganov, reasonable goals, achievable within a reasonable time frame can make you a very advanced language learner and, probably more important, language user, and I don't see any point where the journey comes to an end, not in 10 000 hours, not in 5 000 hours, and probably not in 20 000 hours. My German is expert level, and native, and I could learn about it every day until the end of my life, and much more must this be true for any foreign language. It is never done, solved, acquired completely, but you can use it much earlier, and I guess this is what people are really interested in, making their languages usable. So all this talking about native speakers and time needed for real and outstanding expertise will only be a distraction for the average learner, who should better know that he can get very far, i f he spends 1 000 hours really learning instead of background listening and hoping for the intervention of some kabbalistic number deity which will bring things to a good and successful end, it won't come. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5798 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 35 of 60 14 February 2011 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't "disagree", per se, it's just that there is no data to support that assertion. "A long time", yes, that matches everyone's observations. "roughly 10,000 hours", well, until someone gives me data, I'll stick with "a long time".
I once dreamed in Swedish. In the dream, I was telling someone I don't speak Swedish, but I was curious as to whether I would understand it if someone spoke it to me. So he spoke to me in Swedish, and I understood every word he said. I don't understand Swedish, and watching Wallander while awake has proven that beyond reasonable doubt! Dreams are funny that way. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| cpnlsn Triglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5960 days ago 22 posts - 29 votes Speaks: English*, French, German | Message 36 of 60 15 February 2011 at 1:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I must say I find this thread compelling. At first I did some
calculations on what 10,000 hours means. If you have a job or a family or a life the idea becomes untenable. That said the number explains why so few people attain success in language learning - there's just not enough input in many cases - whatever the 'number' is. If 10,000 represents a 10 year journey, then that's 1,000 a year, with days off and holidays one can do more. One may reach one's goals early on - if so, well and good. I think the basic challenge is to have much greater input than one may have been accustomed to. On the other hand am not too sure about putting the radio on in your sleep.... though have done it at different points...... Anyway it is a challenge to me to be more creative about background listening opportunities. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5085 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 37 of 60 15 February 2011 at 1:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Use several radios, different stations and have them run at the same time. More input, all the time ... miatt, oh, the possibilities! 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| clumsy Octoglot Senior Member Poland lang-8.com/6715Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4965 days ago 1116 posts - 1367 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Japanese, Korean, French, Mandarin, Italian, Vietnamese Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swedish Studies: Danish, Dari, Kirundi | Message 38 of 60 15 February 2011 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have read on some book that you need to just lsiten to 1500 hours of input.
Roughly 2 months. I plan to spend such time on my 4 most important languages: Korean, Japanese, Chinese and English. I have something like one month of Japanese already, and I feel I can understand most of the stuff I hear. But it depends, sometimes I understand more and sometimes less. The movies are hardest to comprehend. For example I understand the majority of program in English, but when watching movie I am not so good. I don't know why. Is it the way they speak? And you should pay attention to hat you listen too, not like listen to Azeri tv, when reading a playboy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5798 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 39 of 60 16 February 2011 at 12:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
No sorry, that's nonsense. You cannot listen to multiple radio stations at once -- it is humanly impossible! You need to mix your media... obviously! So put on one radio station in one language while watching a TV station in another. At the same time read a newspaper in a third language while playing a computer game in a fourth. And if you know how to read Braille.... 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| doviende Diglot Senior Member Canada languagefixatio Joined 5773 days ago 533 posts - 1245 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Hindi, Swedish, Portuguese | Message 40 of 60 16 February 2011 at 12:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Ya, it seems pretty clear to me that 10000 hours is a big overshoot, even for something far away from English like Japanese. I think there's a lesson to take out of it though, which is that it will take some non-trivial time to be really good at Japanese. Something like the 750 hours that was suggested for learning that big pile of vocab and characters...that's nothing to sneeze at. Even an extremely dedicated student would take months to complete that.
So, while you're studying, just remember that it's ok if you're not super awesome yet. You'll get there, but it'll take some time. The good news, is that it'll definitely take less than 10000 hours. I'm at ~170 hours of Dutch and I'm reasonably comfortable reading novels, and I understand a lot of what I hear from my audiobooks. I'm not where I want to be yet, but I know I'll get to a pretty good place in under 400 hours. The idea of the Pareto Principle is important to keep in mind, which is that you can learn a lot of the really important stuff really quickly, and then fill in the smaller details over time. Ignore the time limits, and just keep working at it. You'll get there soon enough. 7 persons have voted this message useful |
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