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Feynman on Japanese

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mrwarper
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 Message 18 of 23
30 April 2011 at 11:42am | IP Logged 
Volte wrote:

Physicists are generally the last people one expects to take seemingly-needless complications well, much less when such complications are related to social formality levels.


Maybe because we are --by far-- more interested in solving interesting puzzles than in creating dull ones? :)

OK, seriously...

First, we don't know for sure what exactly put Feynmann off, but I don't think someone who managed to learn Portuguese would refer to adding this or that for politeness is 'using different words', so I'd go for the 'different roots' hypothesis, which would be baffling for sure.

Then, if you explain using such 'different words' on the basis of 'needless complications' you surely get a mighty pissed-off physicist :)

Second, we know even less about his teachers, but again I doubt someone as bright as The Guy, who besides managed to learn another language, wouldn't have found a way to compensate for that.

And third, I don't know how well we can compare the Japanese you should handle today in those situations with what Feynman had to face 50 years ago. Perhaps those of you who know better can enlighten me, but I've met a lot of ~25 yo Japanese girls in the company of a Japanese friend who was ~40, and he told me it was as exhausting and tiresome for him as it was for me, not because of the language like in my case, but because of the effort it was to adjust to their ways of talking, expressions, mannerisms, etc. So, maybe it was way different back then :-?


Edited by mrwarper on 30 April 2011 at 11:44am

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patuco
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 Message 19 of 23
30 April 2011 at 2:11pm | IP Logged 
Would the Japanese expect a foreigner to understand the levels of politeness or would they excuse such socially inappropriate speech (and possibly behaviour) because the person is not Japanese?
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mrwarper
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 Message 20 of 23
30 April 2011 at 2:45pm | IP Logged 
I have often heard that is the case. I would --to an extent--, regardless of nationality.

I mean, I think we shouldn't perpetuate meaningless social conventions, and that any 'rules' about interaction between any two given individuals should be left up to them, and them alone. So, if someone says/does something that I deem inappropriate, I'll ignore it until a certain (probably somewhat low) threshold of comfortability is trespassed; then I'll tell him what's going on just to ensure he's aware, and any hard stuff will come only after that.

Apparently, however, many people won't go to great lengths in that regard. I really felt bad about that woman's story, even if it's partly fictional.

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William Camden
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 Message 21 of 23
02 May 2011 at 3:01pm | IP Logged 
Volte wrote:
William Camden wrote:
It was probably as much a cultural as a linguistic problem for Feynman.

Years ago I saw a French film, Stupeur et tremblements, based on a reportedly true story of a French or Belgian woman who speaks Japanese and goes to work for a Tokyo firm. Despite knowing the language, she commits all sorts of cultural faux pas in terms of Japanese society and ends up being assigned as a toilet attendant in the office building. I have to say the film did not present Japanese society in a very flattering light, although I had trouble believing that the main character, who supposedly learned Japanese from living in the country as a child, would be as socially clueless as she was.


She left the country at 5, so it actually does make sense. She's Belgian.



In the film, the actress appears to have a command of spoken Japanese better than a five-year old's (I say appears, as I don't know Japanese myself). On the other hand, her grasp of social and company etiquette in the rather unpleasant zaibatsu that hires her is slim to none.
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Volte
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 Message 22 of 23
02 May 2011 at 3:34pm | IP Logged 
William Camden wrote:
Volte wrote:
William Camden wrote:
It was probably as much a cultural as a linguistic problem for Feynman.

Years ago I saw a French film, Stupeur et tremblements, based on a reportedly true story of a French or Belgian woman who speaks Japanese and goes to work for a Tokyo firm. Despite knowing the language, she commits all sorts of cultural faux pas in terms of Japanese society and ends up being assigned as a toilet attendant in the office building. I have to say the film did not present Japanese society in a very flattering light, although I had trouble believing that the main character, who supposedly learned Japanese from living in the country as a child, would be as socially clueless as she was.


She left the country at 5, so it actually does make sense. She's Belgian.



In the film, the actress appears to have a command of spoken Japanese better than a five-year old's (I say appears, as I don't know Japanese myself). On the other hand, her grasp of social and company etiquette in the rather unpleasant zaibatsu that hires her is slim to none.


The book goes into this in some detail. It's full of references to her speaking Japanese like the 5 year old she was when she left, and her continual struggle to learn to speak it like an adult.

Her attempts even backfire at times, when she fulfils social expectations in ways not expected of her as a foreigner, hence breaking other social expectations and getting rather negative reactions. The passage in the book about serving drinks at a meeting is worth a read.

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Lucky Charms
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 Message 23 of 23
03 May 2011 at 9:53am | IP Logged 
patuco wrote:
Would the Japanese expect a foreigner to understand the levels of
politeness or would they excuse such socially inappropriate speech (and possibly
behaviour) because the person is not Japanese?


In my experience, they would very generously excuse socially inappropriate speech (e.g.
wrong politeness level) as long as there is no obvious ill intention behind it, because
they are constantly being told how difficult their language is and, to be honest, many
seem to have extremely low expectations for a foreigner's Japanese. The foreigner who
can say "arigatou" is praised, and he who can put a sentence together is often met with
shock, never mind the impossible task of getting the politeness levels right! ;) As a
result of this almost too-forgiving attitude, my coworker here has been using informal
speech indiscriminately for 9 months, with customers, company presidents, the mayor...
and has never met with more than good-natured amusement.


As for behavior, I think it depends on whether or not a certain cultural difference is
known to Japanese people. No one will fault a foreigner if he doesn't keep an eye on
his superior's beer glass and refill it when necessary, or if he takes someone's empty
compliment at face value, or anything like that because these are widely known to be
"Japanese" behaviors which foreigners aren't expected to know (again, the bar here is
set rather low). However, there understandably are cultural differences which the
average Japanese are not aware of, and which they might misinterpret as self-
centeredness, irresponsibility, etc. on the part of the foreigner.


However, the situation we're talking about is in a professional setting, where an
employee's conduct reflects on the entire company, so her coworkers and superiors might
be less inclined to think her gaffes are very endearing. Also, because her spoken
Japanese is fluent and her accent is quite possibly native-like, she might not get the
"foreigner pass" so easily.


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