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Japanese from scratch TAC 2015 東亜 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4964 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 1249 of 1702 18 January 2014 at 7:04am | IP Logged |
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I just had a JOI lesson and it was probably good practice for me. I was the only one in the class so it was like a one on one lesson and I talked non stop. But it totally highlighted how my not studying my grammar deck really hurts me. It stinks but to be fluent I have to actively use these darn structures over and over and over and well I haven't reached a point where I can just passively take in Japanese to maintain it. I was just thinking how much I miss modal verbs in particular. Oh well. My passive understanding of Japanese is getting better all the time thankfully. That's all I consistently practice so it makes sense. Eventually it's got to have an impact on my active Japanese I'm sure but it could be a few years perhaps... who knows. Or I could make myself develop my active skills better instead. Or not. Passive understanding isn't too bad...
Oh I signed up for Spanish class this semester. That's probably not going to help my Japanese and particularly my Chinese.. haha. I just really wanted to take a class and Chinese doesn't fit my schedule. They only offer it evenings and I work evenings. I signed up for the super advanced 102 class. I haven't looked at Spanish in years although I self studied myself up to a low intermediate level I think just by reading books with a dictionary. So nice how you can do that with a European language. I use it once in a while with customers at work but generally I just speak English slowly and grade my language so they can understand me - only if their Spanish is non-existant do I use mine. And it's rusty. So this course could help. I hope it's fun. I'm not going to do a language log for Spanish since I have no idea how long I'm going to keep studying it. I might just stop after the class ends. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5762 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 1250 of 1702 18 January 2014 at 11:55am | IP Logged |
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Japanese doesn't use modal verbs in the same way as European languages that I am familiar with like English, German, or French. However, there are plenty of expressions in Japanese which do the same work as the modal verbs. They can seem a bit more complicated than expressions with modal verbs and sometimes there can be a wider range of options, not to mention the care needed over the distinction between casual/polite/honorific/humble, but this should be balanced against the fact that you do not have to memorise different forms for different "persons" of a verb, and there are so very few irregular verbs to worry about.
will This one has to be the easiest in Japanese. Just as in German, in order to talk about the future you can just use the present tense with an adverb of time. Unlike German, there's no alternative construction using a modal verb to talk about the future. 明日公園に行きます。 Tomorrow I will go to the park. won't This is easy too. Just put the verb in the negative: 明日公園に行きません。 I won't go to the park tomorrow. going to In English and French (I don't know about German) we can say "I am going to do something" in relation to something that will happen in the near future. There is a "going to do" expression available in Japanese, however the "going" bit is literal, it means you are travelling somewhere to do the activity. 彼女を会いに行きます。 I'm going to meet my girlfriend. can There is a whole verb conjugation pattern to be learned to put verbs into the potential form, which is the Japanese equivalent of saying "can do". However, before getting your tongue in a tangle over verb forms like 食べられる, it's worth spending some time on できる ("can do"), the potential form of する ("to do"). Many Japanese verbs are in the form kanji compound + する, and these can all be turned into "can do" statements by changing する to できる. 理解する to understand 理解できる can understand Furthermore, for any verb, rather than converting to potential form you can make use of できる by sticking ことができる at the end of the plain form of the verb. 肉を食べることができる can eat meat ギターを弾くことができる can play guitar These can of course also be expressed by conjugating the verbs into the potential form, but I found it easier to drill the use of ことができる first. cannot Another easy expression. Once again, you put the verb in the negative: 絶対に富士山を登ることができません。 I absolutely cannot climb Mt Fuji. could In English, "could" is either the past tense or the conditional of "can", depending on the context. There is a note on the use of the conditional at the end of this post, so I will just talk about the past tense here, which is very straight forward, as you can conjugate できる (or any other potential form verb) in the past tense: 子供の時、自転車に乗ることができなかった 。 When I was a child, I couldn't ride a bicycle. ability vs. permission In English, we use the word "can" when we are talking about both an ability and a permission. "I can drive a car" could mean "I am legally allowed to drive a car" (permission) or it could mean "I have taken lessons and can now safely control a car" (ability). The use of the potential verbs in Japanese is all about ability, rather than permission. Permission will be covered further on in this post. want There are two expressions for "want" in Japanese ～たい (want to do...) and ～ほしい (want something/want something done). いちごを食べたい。 I want to eat a strawberry. いちごがほしい。 (note the use of the particle が here) I want a strawberry. This other use of ほしい, meaning "I want something done", should be used with care, as it's quite a strong way of basically telling someone else to do something: 帰ってほしい。 I want you to go/come home! don't want ～たい and ～ほしい can also be turned into the negative form when you want to say you "don't want something". However, they are actually adjectives rather than verbs. Not a major problem, just a slightly different conjugation pattern: いちごを食べたくない。 I don't want to eat a strawberry. いちごがほしくない。 I don't want a strawberry. wanted ～たい and ～ほしい can be used to talk about the past as well. Again, they conjugate as adjectives: 昨日、いちごを食べたかった。 昨日、いちごがほしかった。 You/he/she/they want A slight complication with wanting in Japanese, is that you can only use ～たい or ～ほしい in relation to your own desires. I think the idea is that there is no way you can really know the desires of someone else. So if you're talking about somebody else, ～たい becomes ～たがる and ほしい becomes ～ほしがる. These constructions are a verb rather than an adjective, and conjugate accordingly: 子供はいちごを食べたがっている。 Looks like the child wants to eat a strawberry. 子供はいちごをほしがっている。 Looks like the child wants a strawberry. must An order or obligation There are three main ways of saying "must" in Japanese. But we shouldn't complain too much about this, in English we have two ways, because you can also use "have to". Not only that, but we can conjugate "have to" in any tense, but "must" is always "must". ～なければならない ～なくてはいけない ～ないとだめ - more informal than the previous two All of these expressions can be literally translated as something like "it's no good if (you) don't..." but you don't need to worry too much about that and can just learn them as set expressions. In casual speech (i.e. talking to close friends) you can shorten the expressions and just use phrases like ～しなくちゃ or ～ないと, which roll off the tongue really easily, but are no good in です・ます situations. So if you want to say "I have to do my homework" this could come out as: 宿題しなければならない。 宿題しなくてはいけない。 宿題しないとだめ。 宿題しなくちゃ。 宿題しないと。 I decided to tackle this by focusing on drilling just one expression which I could then always fall back on in conversation. I picked ～なければなりません because it seems to be a little more common, although I have to say I've noticed my lang exchange partner seems to use ～なくてはいけません more. A prohibition: must not When you want to say that you "must not do something", you can use the expression ～てはいけない: 金魚にえさをやってはいけない。 You must not feed the goldfish. This is basically the negative version of ～なくてはいけない. Or maybe that's the other way round, with all the double negatives. What I am trying to say is that it follows the same kind of logic of must/must not. Of course, in English, we have a different logic for have to/don't have to, but I'll come on to an expression for "don't have to" in the section for "may". A judgement Another usage of "must" in the English language is to express a judgement, such as: "That man runs every day. He must be healthy." In Japanese, you could use the word はず instead: あの男の人は毎日走ります。元気なはずです 。 may giving or asking for permission The expression you need for giving or asking for permission in Japanese is: ～てもいい ここでタバコを吸ってもいいです。 You may smoke here. ここでタバコを吸ってもいいですか。 May I smoke here? To make the expression more polite (useful if asking for permission), you can replace いい with よろしい. Take it a step further by replacing です with でしょう. don't have to You can also use ～てもいい with negative expressions to express things which are not compulsory: ここでタバコを吸わなくてもいいです。 You don't have to smoke here. may not Isn't this the same meaning as "must not"? You can use the expression ～てはいけない in this case as well. expressing doubt We also can use "may" to express uncertainty in English, for which you could use an expression like ～かもしれない or, if you're a bit more certain, ～でしょう. 明日雨が降るかもしれない。 It may rain tomorrow. would The conditional (would, could, should etc.) is used in English to add some uncertainty to a statement. The way this is done in Japanese is somewhat different, although of course mechanisms exist. In fact, although you can be as precise as you need to in Japanese, it's a very convenient language to use when you want to get away with being vague. I struggled for a while with the fact that there was no direct equivalent to "would" when dealing with constructions using "if". But actually, in Japanese, it's really very simple. If you use an expression like ～たら or ～ば, this takes care of the uncertainty aspect in the statement, it just applies it to the verb in the "if" clause rather than the verb in the "then" clause, which is conjugated in a normal non-past way. お金持ちだったら、大きい家を買います。 If I was rich, I would buy a big house. I've touched above on other expressions of uncertainty when it comes to your own personal judgement, such as ～かもしれない, ～でしょう, ～はず. Another area where uncertainty is very important, and where we tend to use conditionals in English, is when it comes to politely making requests, asking permission etc. I touched on this above with modifications to ～てもいい but I could write twice as much again on this subject and this post has already turned out a lot longer than I was expecting. Apologies for any errors and for hijacking your thread with such a long post, but I hope it helps a bit. Any corrections would of course be appreciated. Edited by g-bod on 18 January 2014 at 12:41pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4627 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 1251 of 1702 18 January 2014 at 1:15pm | IP Logged |
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Wow, g-bod, nice grammar lesson!
1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4964 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 1252 of 1702 18 January 2014 at 10:43pm | IP Logged |
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Wow. hehe. I don't know if I studied the ないと structure and I think it pops up a lot. I can't believe you wrote all that XD. Thanks.
It's not that i haven't studied these structures a lot, they just don't roll off the tongue so easily. BTW you could probably write a really good guide to Japanese grammar no problem. I'm trying to think what I could do to fix this faster than just doing JOI lessons. The JOI lessons helped me get conversant enough to well get through the lessons and to understand spoken Japanese much better. It seems like it's plateauing however. I think one method would be to (やばい) write a lot in Japanese. Which is something we all hate doing - writing on lang-8. I could also do my 自己紹介. There's a good example of why I struggle speaking sometimes. I kept thinking じしょしょうかい in my head instead of じこしょうかい and had to look it up in the dictionary. メンドクサイ. And confusing to whomever you're speaking to. And this is a word I really should know instead of something I haven't seen/used in over year. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4964 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 1253 of 1702 19 January 2014 at 12:54am | IP Logged |
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自己紹介です。 こんにちは。 私はポールですが、ここに、それよりよく分 かられた名前は、Kraemderだと思います。 Kraemderと言うのは、 Everquestと言うオンラインゲームのMMORPGの古い ハンドルです。 その時、13年前か、 私はドイツ語が話せることが 希望していた。 このあだ名は少しいドイツ語みたいですが、 実名ではありません。 その代わり、私はコンピューターのランダム 名前を取って、ちょっと変化しました。
私は３６歳です。 年寄りで怖い、でも仕方ないです。 年を取るのはいいものじゃありません。 私がさっき言ったようにドイツ語を、もう、 勉強しました。 その後、私はフランス語とスペイン語も勉強 しました。 低中級が到達したと思います。 毎回、私が難しいことは驚いた。 残念ですが、もっと外国語を学ぶのはほとん ど同じメンドクサイです。 長い 間、外国語をあまり勉強しませんでした 。 そして、三年前に、私はNetflixで犬夜叉 （いぬやしゃ）を見ました。 信じられなっかた。 とても好きでした。 今更、外国語の勉強は超難しいことを良く分 かりました。 でも、エピソードを何十見た後で、日本語を 勉強することにしました。 まずは私は漢字を全然習いたくなかった。 頑張りましたが、あまり習いませんでした。 単語も、読解も、聞き取りも、会話力、でき なくて、進みをないみたいでした。 九ヵ月後に、Remembering The Kanjiを見つけました。 凄かったと思いました。 私は一週間全体休んで、Remembering the Kanjiを勉強のために。 そして、私は日本語102を始めました。 私の先生はあまり分かりませんでしたが、課 程の後で、 たくさん文法学んで、良かったでした。 私はこの先生と一緒に201と202を続きました。 先生の教える方は英語と日本語の翻訳みたい でした。 102と言うのはいいことでしたが、その後、 日本語だけの方がいいと思います。 202後でG-bodおかげで、 JOIのインターネットの授業を始めたんです。 私は六ヶ月ぐらい、JOIと勉強しています。 よろしくお願いします。 I'm gonna post this on lang-8 and get it fixed. If you read the raw you'll get a better idea of my ability but may have difficulty understanding some of it hehe. I did use a dictionary and a few words I haven't used before so I'm sure those are all wrong. Not too many however. well there's question marks showing up instead of readable text. Crap. *many edits* It's showing my terrible Japanese the way I terribly wrote it. 良かった！ Edited by kraemder on 19 January 2014 at 1:47am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4964 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 1254 of 1702 19 January 2014 at 5:00am | IP Logged |
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I got some corrections. I always feel bad when they correct mere careless mistakes. But there weren't too many of those thankfully. I added furigana (hopefully I didn't goof that up). I probably should post a version without furigana.. wish I thought of this before I added the furigana..
自己紹介（じこしょうかい）です。 こんにちは。 私（わたし）はポールですが、ここに、それ よりよく知（し）られている名前（なまえ） は、Kraemderだと思（おも）います。 Kraemderと言（い）うのは、 Everquestと言（い）うオンラインゲームのMMORPG の古いハンドルです。 その時（とき）は、 13年（ねん）前（まえ）で、 私はドイツ語（ご）が話（はな）せるように なりたかった。 このあだ名（な）はちょっとドイツ語（ご） みたいですが、実名（じつめい）ではありま せん。 その代（か）わり、私はコンピューターのラ ンダム名前（なまえ）を取（と）って、ちょ っと変化（へんか）させました。 私は３６歳（さい）です。 年（とし）をとるのは怖（こわ）い、でも仕 方（しかた）ないです。 年（と し）を取（と）るのはいいものじゃあ りません。 私がさっき言ったようにドイツ語は、もう、 勉強（べんきょう）しました。 その後（あと）、私はフランス語とスペイン 語も勉強（べんきょう）しました。 低中級（ていちゅうきゅう）に到達（と うた つ）したと思（おも）います。 毎回（まいかい）、私はその難（むずか）し さに驚（おどろ）きました。 残 念（ざんねん）ですが、もっと外国語（だ いこくご）を学（まな）ぶのはほとんど同（ おな）じくらいメンドクサイです。 長い間（ながいあいだ）、外国語（がい こく ご）をあまり勉強しませんでした。 そして、三年前（さんねんまえ）に、私 はNet flixで犬夜叉 （いぬやしゃ）を見（み）ました。 信（しん）じられなかった。 とても好（す）きでした。 今更（いまさら）、外国語（がいこくご）の 勉強は超難（ちょうむずか）しいことが良く 分かりました。 でも、エピソードを何十話（なんじゅうわ） も見（み）た後（あと）で、日本語を勉強（ べんきょう）することにしました。 まずは私は漢字（かんじ）を全然（ぜん ぜん ）習（なら）いたくなかった。 頑張（がんば）りましたが、あまり覚えられ ませんでした。 単語（たんご）も、読解（どっかい）も、聞 （き）き取（と）りも、会話（かいわ）も、 できなくて、進歩（しんぽ）がないみたいに 見（み）えました。 九ヵ月後（きゅうかげつご）に、Remembering The Kanjiを見（み）つけました。 凄（すご）いと思（おも）いました。 私はRemembering the Kanjiでの勉強（べんきょう）のために 一週間（いっしゅかん）全体（ぜんたい）み を取（と）りました。 そして、私は日本語102を始（はじ）めました 。 私の先生（せんせい）はあまり分（わ）かり ませんでしたが、課程（かてい）の後（あと ）で、 たくさん文法（ぶんぽう）学（まな）んで、 良（よ）かったでした。 私はこ の先生と一緒（いっしょ）に201と202を 続（すづ）けました。 先生の教（おし）える方は英語（えいご）と 日本語の翻訳（ほんやく）みたいでした。&nb sp; 102とは良（い）いと思（おも）い ますが、そ の後（あと）、 日本語だけの方（ほう）がいいと思います。 202の後（あと）、G-bodのおかげで、 JOIのインターネットの授業（じゅきょう）を 始（はじ）めたんです。 私は六 ヶ月（ろっかげつ）ぐらい、JOIで勉強 しています。 よろしくお願（なが）いします。 Edited by kraemder on 19 January 2014 at 5:05am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4964 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 1255 of 1702 19 January 2014 at 5:13am | IP Logged |
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And here it is without the furigana. I think going forward I'll just do a compromise putting furigana for words I feel like using furigana for. IE if you're around my level they'll be useful. If you're below then you'll need rikai-sama and if you're above you'll just have to suffer.
自己紹介です。 こんにちは。 私はポールですが、ここに、それよりよく知 られている名前は、Kraemderだと思います。 Kraemderと言うのは、 Everquestと言うオンラインゲームのMMORPGの古い ハンドルです。 その時は、 13年前で、 私はドイツ語が話せるようになりたかった。 このあだ名はちょっとドイツ語みたいですが 、実名ではありません。 その代 わり、私はコンピューターのランダム 名前を取って、ちょっと変化させました。 私は３６歳です。 年をとるのは怖い、でも仕方ないです。 年を取るのはいいものじゃありません。 私がさっき言ったようにドイツ語は、もう、 勉強しました。 その後、私はフランス語とスペイン語も勉強 しました。 低中級に到達したと思います。 毎回、私はその難しさに驚きました。 残念ですが、もっと外国語を学ぶのはほとん ど同じくらいメンドクサイです。 &nb sp;長い間、外国語をあまり勉強しませんでし た 。 そして、三年前に、私はNetflixで犬夜叉 を見ました。 信じられなかった。 とても好きでした。 今更、 外国語の勉強は超難しいことが良く分かりま した。 でも、エピソードを何十話も見た後で、日本 語を勉強することにしました。 まずは私は漢字を全然習いたくなかった。 頑張りましたが、あまり覚えられませんでし た。 単語も、読解も、聞き取りも、会話も、でき なくて、進歩がないみたいに見えました。 九ヵ月後に、Remembering The Kanjiを見つけました。 凄いと思いました。 私はRemembering the Kanjiでの勉強のために 一週間全体みを取りました。 そして、私は日本語102を始めました。 私の先生はあまり分かりませんでした が、 課程の後で、 たくさん文法学んで、良かったでした。 私はこの先生と一緒に201と202を続けました。 先生の教える方は英語と日本語の翻訳みたい でした。 102とは良いと思いますが、その後、 日本語だけの方がいいと思います。 202の後、G-bodのおかげで、 JOIのインターネットの授業を始めたんです。 私は六ヶ月ぐらい、JOIで勉強しています。 よろしくお願いします。 Edited by kraemder on 19 January 2014 at 5:21am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4964 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 1256 of 1702 21 January 2014 at 8:52am | IP Logged |
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I just had a lesson with a JOI tutor. We just started とびら. I had done the 1st chapter about 6 months or so ago with a friend but hadn't looked at it since and didn't prepare for the lesson since it was old stuff and I'm easily distracted. We did the 1st reading. I can't believe how easily I forget how to read certain kanji or how many mistakes I make reading if I'm just reading out loud instead of to myself at my own pace. There's a lot of mistakes. Obviously if I had prepared for the lesson I'd have done much better but this was stuff I did do already. And it made me think - am I ever going to be able to read kanji out lout with proper Japanese? I don't know. I could see myself being able to read rather well for meaning after a while if I keep studying but just thinking the English in my head or maybe an alternate reading for the kanji or something that isn't really correct. I asked her how long she'd been teaching.. 9 years.. and then if any American students ever got really good at reading kanji. She said not really. She thinks Chinese is actually easier because there's usually one common way to say a hanzi. (I think there's more than one way to read a hanzi but one common way and for sure they don't use the Japanese reading along with the Chinese one.) This language is crazy.
You really don't get this with a a language with an alphabet. You can learn to read Spanish out loud pretty quickly even if you don't know what you're saying. I was chatting with a lady who studied Korean in the army and in her class they taught the students how to read the writing system in a day - I took longer than a day to learn hiragana but these were talented students. I'm hoping I get better. I know reading German I don't sound out the words I just recognize them as a whole a lot and somehow with German a lot of the words come off the tip of my tongue really well. So the more fluent I get at speaking Japanese the better I'll get at reading it. I think I'll go read some more though. I am convinced that is the single best thing I can do for myself at my current level. I don't think I get much watching anime with or without subs unfortunately. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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