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Listening from the beginning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| kmart Senior Member Australia Joined 5904 days ago 194 posts - 400 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Italian | Message 25 of 70 14 May 2011 at 7:16am | IP Logged | |||||
I don't think that's a given for everybody. For some people, seeing the written word, where the pronunciation rules are different to their native language, impairs their pronunciation abilities. They "see" the word in their head and keep trying to pronounce it with their native language rules. If they had only heard the language, but had not seen it written down, they wouldn't have a written picture, and would have to go on the sound alone, and thus their pronunciation would be better. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5546 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 26 of 70 14 May 2011 at 8:52am | IP Logged | |||||
That sounds a bit like a bad or rare thing; but it's actually the contrary - a side effect of our ability to record language in a written way. Because the written word is a very effective memory aid it allows us to 'say' words we haven't heard nearly frequently enough to know their pronuncation well, especially when it comes to phonological effects that govern the interaction of words in a sentence. When we see such a written image of a word we have to re-create the sound of it following the simplicized rules we have learnt consciously. I think I recently figured out why my 1st and 3rd person singular preterite forms in Spanish sound so odd - because I tried to pronounce the stressed syllable with a higher pitch (similar to the stress in a Spanish noun or other verb forms), but native speakers actually seem to drop the pitch on those syllables and lengthen them instead. Still not sure if I got is right now (I'll have to listen to more samples with those forms in mind) - if I did, that would be a classical case of my 'knowledge' about stress and the way it is written interfering with correct perception and therefor correct memory. Unless one has a very actue, well-trained perception or no opportunity to rely on written information, mistakes likes mine will happen. The only remedy is to consistently work on listening/speaking skills. By the way, I'm more in favour of skipping the beginner's podcasts and such altogether and instead repeating interesting intermediate material until it makes more sense. Might just be me but I can't bring myself to listen attentively to content that I don't even want to understand. 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6455 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 27 of 70 14 May 2011 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
We are mainly wired to learn through social interaction. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5340 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 28 of 70 14 May 2011 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I must admit, I'd never really thought much about the importance of social interaction in language, before people (probably Arekkusu, slucido, anyone else?) started mentioning on this forum (and obviously that Irish chap). I had always realised talking was important of course, but really just as pronounciation practice, and developing automaticity. But then it started to tie in with things like mirror neurones, and stuff about how babies prosper in nurturing environments.
I'm also a great believer in "wired in" stuff (Selfish Gene or What Would A Caveman Do?). But there is counter factor in that, in order to be optimal, humans have evolved to expend the minimum effort in acquiring any advantage. So although children are pretty amazing learners, it actually takes them about 14 - 18 years to be able to converse on the same level as their parents, because there is no particular advantage in learning any faster than that. However, in certain specific circumstances (say immersion after being captured by another tribe) they seem to be able to achieve remarkable ability in only a few months. And although things might be hard-wired, it doesn't mean thay can't be adapted or subverted to greater advantage. I can rollerblade a lot faster than I can run. So maybe if I've got a book which explains the "secret code" of the language, I can actually learn it faster than the evolved method? So, back on the fence for me. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5546 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 29 of 70 15 May 2011 at 4:24am | IP Logged | |||||
It's not a book, it's the circumstance that your survival depends on your willingness to forget your former identity and create a new one as a member of the new tribe. Edited by Bao on 15 May 2011 at 4:25am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5161 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 30 of 70 15 May 2011 at 5:00am | IP Logged | |||||
There is no doubt that technology (including writing) can provide us with certain advantages. Most notably, writing allows information to be presented very concisely, and recording technologies allow us to continue to hear a language even in the absence of native speakers, thus extending the length of time we can devote to learning. However, social interactions will always continue to offer just the right amount of adrenaline and human emotions to create a more lasting impression and make learning as dramatic and pertinent as can be. I'm not sure your rollerblades analogy is quite adequate here. Nevertheless, your rollerblades require very specific conditions -- they take time to put on (wouldn't help you in escaping a fire), they need perfect road conditions (useless in sand or grass), etc. They can and do help you move about, but they will only ever be a complement to the more natural alternative: your legs. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| zuneybunny Diglot Newbie United States turkishtrip.wordpres Joined 4717 days ago 32 posts - 52 votes Speaks: English, Mandarin* Studies: Spanish, Turkish | Message 31 of 70 25 May 2011 at 5:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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I am currently learning Turkish with the FSI languages courses. Do you think this fits
with the criteria you gave? It's not really at native speed because it tries to let you pronounce with it, but it's spoken by a native. Thanks! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6483 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 70 25 May 2011 at 11:12am | IP Logged | |||||
I totally agree. It should be possible to find intermediate texts and/or recordings with some relevant content, and if such material is chopped up in small pieces, studied intensively and put together again it is totally feasible to use this as your main fare. Those times were I have tried to use material aimed at beginners' courses I have dropped it because I found it boring and unappetizing.
I'm mainly wired to learn when people don't interact with me. But as anybody else I need to listen to a language in order to get it 'buzzing around' in my mind, and without the internet, radio and TV I would have had to listen to real living persons around me, which could mean that I would have to follow a course. So I'm happy that I live in an era where I can listen to things through the electronical media. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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