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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| David Hallgren Triglot Groupie Sweden davidhallgren.se Joined 6776 days ago 40 posts - 43 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, Japanese Studies: Mandarin | Message 1 of 24 08 May 2006 at 3:56am | IP Logged | ||
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While studying Japanese I have looked at the basics of Mandarin a couple of times but now I've decided to begin learning it "for real". I'm currently in Tokyo for another couple of months and I still intend to keep studying Japanese but I just feel that I've reached a point where I can take on another language. Being able things like having fun with my Japanese friends, reading books and watching TV/movies in Japanese has been a great experience and the feeling everyday now is a great incentive to reach the same level in one more language. So, here is my plan of attack:
* Materials - Kinesiska, språket i mittens rike (A book in Swedish that seems quite good for grammar and vocab at an elementary level. Audio for most sample sentences and all dialogs) - ChinesePod.com, I've downloaded the entire backlog of podcasts and PDFs and intend to listen to at least 1 per day. I also have the 90 Pimsleur lessons but I’m not sure I will use these. I’ve read what maxb has written about them I really agree with him that building vocab is one of the most important things so spending 45 hours + repetition going through that might now be the most efficient thing to do. I know from using Pimsleur for Japanese when I started out studying that a little less than 2 years ago, that I seem to be able to remember about 90-95 % of the words and phrases from listening to the lessons only once but for now I think I will wait and see how I do with what I have. I’ve also thought about getting the recently released Assimil for Chinese. Has any one here used that and what are your thoughts about it? * How - I take lessons once a week at the university. The lessons are in Japanese but the teacher is Chinese. The lessons are very basic but the teacher is really good and she's even able to make learning basic pronunciation fun! - For 2 hours a week I'll meet a Chinese friend here at the dorm and practice speaking etc. I've had one session so far and was amazed with her patience and how fun she thought it was. She was amazingly good at explaining how to form the sounds and drawing diagrams for where my tongue should be or where I “should create the sounds”. In return I speak English with her as well (we usually talk in Japanese). I'm far from fluent in English but at least I think I'm able to help her improve her conversation skills which right now are at the almost the same level as mine in Chinese. - For vocabulary and hanzi I've adopted the two computer programs I created when studying Japanese to be able to handle Chinese. The basic idea is a flashcard-like interface with cards moving between decks automatically so that words I know well show up less frequently and vice versa. This software has probably been the main reason behind my success in learning about 2000 kanji so far. Hopefully this knowledge of kanji will help me a lot in my studies of hanzi. I'll try to write about my progress every now and then and follow other threads here about Mandarin. There are so many talented people here that really motivate myself to work harder! Edited by David Hallgren on 08 May 2006 at 3:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6964 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes  7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 2 of 24 08 May 2006 at 8:03am | IP Logged | ||
I have had a look at it. I can't say that I have studied with it but I have listened to most of the lessons in order to find out if I could get anything from it. I think it is pretty good. You have chinese on the left and the learning language on the right. Each sentence on the right side is given both with word-for-word and colloquial translations. The drawback may be that the audio is a bit on the slow side. This is an advantage in the beginning but may get annoying as you get more advanced. Although it speeds up towards the end it never really reaches the speed of native speakers. I still think it could be useful as a first course. It certainly teaches more vocabulary than Pimsleur (1500 words), furthermore if you listened repeatedly to the dialouges in Assimil you would in my view have a better grasp of chinese intonation than if you did Pimsleur. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7096 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 3 of 24 08 May 2006 at 9:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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I would not dismiss Pimsleur Mandarin, especially if you like the Pimsleur method. Pimsleur Mandarin is better than Pimsleur Japanese, so I doubt you'll be disappointed. Regarding Assimil, language programs are not religions, so there's no reason why you can't use both at the same time. Assimil Chinese is pretty good and introduces good vocabulary and sentence structures. Actually, I think Pimsleur Mandarin is better than Assimil for teaching natural intonation because the Assimil Chinese recordings are slower and sound artificial, especially for the first half of the course. In terms of long-term value, Assimil is superior because you'll be able to use it for quite a while after finishing it to review grammar and vocab, whereas Pimsleur is really a one-shot deal and you won't be able to get much use out of it once you finish it. Anyway, I'm not interested in resurrecting the Pimsleur/Assimil debate. Actually, I wish I'd had Assimil Chinese when I was first learning Mandarin, but I doubt I would have come this far if I hadn't started with Pimsleur.
An analogy that I'd like present is that a language is like a set of wires around a core that transmits electrical signals. Pimsleur creates a few wires close to the core and then thickens them allowing more and more current to pass through them at a faster rate. Assimil (or any other dialogue-based program) creates many more wires close to and further away from the core, but does not thicken them to the degree that Pimsleur does. Having thick wires means that you can say those particular sentence structures with any words very quickly without thinking about them. This is what I consider fluency. However, a good amount of wires allows one to communicate a much broader array of thoughts, even if one has to think before speaking. This is what I call communicative competence. Someone who can read a language like Latin but cannot speak it has many wires surrounding the core, but they are all fairly thin. I generally prefer to start with a few thick wires, and then add more branching off from them, but you can really go either way and the result will be the same as long as you study and practise regularly. Edited by Malcolm on 08 May 2006 at 10:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Nyerere Triglot Newbie United States Joined 6965 days ago 24 posts - 27 votes Speaks: English*, German, Swahili Studies: French | Message 4 of 24 09 May 2006 at 12:19am | IP Logged | ||
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If you're into FSI, gdfellows has done a lot of work on digitizing FSI Mandarin for people to download it for free:
http://fsi-language-courses.com/StandardChinese.aspx Edited by Nyerere on 09 May 2006 at 12:20am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| David Hallgren Triglot Groupie Sweden davidhallgren.se Joined 6776 days ago 40 posts - 43 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, Japanese Studies: Mandarin | Message 5 of 24 09 May 2006 at 12:47am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the feedback everyone! I agree with you Malcom that however limited Pimsleur might be in it's scope the things tought in it really stays in your head. Since I have Pimsleur now I guess I'll try that and see what happens combined with ChinesePod and my textbook I should have enough for sometime. If I feel rich I'll consider ordering Assimil as well to complement this as well. 69 € * 2 + 16 € isn't that much if the course is as good as it seems but still.
I so look forward to the next session with my language partner! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6964 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes 7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 6 of 24 09 May 2006 at 1:47am | IP Logged | ||
I know I shouldn't start a debate here but my main beef with Pimsleur is that it gets you speaking to soon. It is better in my view to get used to the intonation first by having an intensive listening period. Then by all means you can use Pimsleur to get your speaking going. I think I might to this for Cantonese. First I'll listen to all the dialouges in Teach yourself until I know them pretty well, then I'll use Pimsleur just to get my speaking going. If your are not very good at mimicking accents I think Pimsleur might do more harm than good if you use it as your first resource. Edited by maxb on 09 May 2006 at 2:01am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7096 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 7 of 24 09 May 2006 at 2:35am | IP Logged | ||
Maybe this is true. I know someone who used Pimsleur Mandarin 1 and his accent was truly an abomination. Only a few of his words were pronounced correctly and his tones were pretty much randon. Chinese people cannot understand him at all. This is probably because he is not good at mimicking accents. He would probably need a native speaker or phonetician to teach him correct pronunciation. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6964 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes 7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 8 of 24 09 May 2006 at 5:07am | IP Logged | ||
Or he would need to listen alot before starting Pimsleur. I think the value of a lot of listening shouldn't be underestimated. If you are a bad mimick this is probably because you have never before taken an interest in accents or music, so you are not used to the kind of listening required to be a successful mimick. I think if you start listening repeatedly to short dialouges with out any pressure to imitate them you will come closer to developing a native accent then if you start off with Pimsleur right away. Many people talk about ear training or developing perfect pitch to help them learn mandarin. I think the absoulte best ear training you can do is to listen to the language itself. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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