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Turkish family of languages

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!LH@N
Triglot
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 Message 25 of 88
08 December 2007 at 2:41pm | IP Logged 
you have some examples of Turkish words adopted into Persian?
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William Camden
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 Message 26 of 88
08 December 2007 at 3:46pm | IP Logged 
One Turkish word that definitely went east is ordu - "army". Ultimately it became the name of the Urdu language.
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Jerald
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 Message 27 of 88
08 December 2007 at 11:56pm | IP Logged 
24karrot wrote:
Persian has also borrowed significantly from Turkish


Are you sure? I was under the impression that it was very much the other way around. Ottoman rulers, and even their society, were very much influenced by that of Persia. In fact, among historical buffs, I do think it can be argued that Islamic civilization and government as a whole was based on that of Sassanid Persia (and of course the religion of Islam itself) upon it being conquered by Arab invaders. But I digress.

I would like to chime in a bit on mutual intelligibility between Turkic languages. I have an Azeri friend who tells me that mutual intelligibility between Turkish and Azerbaijani is grossly overestimated, and that he can only keep up with about 1/4 of what is said on, say, a Turkish talk show.

Edited by Jerald on 08 December 2007 at 11:58pm

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24karrot
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 Message 28 of 88
09 December 2007 at 12:57am | IP Logged 
William Camden wrote:
One Turkish word that definitely went east is ordu - "army". Ultimately it became the name of the Urdu language.


Are you sure? In Persian it means more like "camping". I could see how those are supposed to be related.

As for other words, the only one I (think) was adopted from Turkish is barkhi... that's all I can remember at this hour. But Turkish did have an influence on Persian and I think supplied the most loanwords after Arabic (or is that French or English?).

Sorry I can't provide a concrete answer at the moment.
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William Camden
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 Message 29 of 88
09 December 2007 at 1:28am | IP Logged 
24karrot wrote:
William Camden wrote:
One Turkish word that definitely went east is ordu - "army". Ultimately it became the name of the Urdu language.


Are you sure? In Persian it means more like "camping". I could see how those are supposed to be related.

As for other words, the only one I (think) was adopted from Turkish is barkhi... that's all I can remember at this hour. But Turkish did have an influence on Persian and I think supplied the most loanwords after Arabic (or is that French or English?).

Sorry I can't provide a concrete answer at the moment.


I was a bit vague in expressing it, as I do not know any Farsi, so I used "went east" rather than "entered Persian". But the name Urdu was transmitted through Persian, to mean "language of the camp".   
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!LH@N
Triglot
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 Message 30 of 88
09 December 2007 at 4:03am | IP Logged 
I think your friend should work a little more on his Azerbaijani, because I know of people who do listen to TV from Azerbaijan (I don't because I can't get it) and do understand a lot more than 1/4.

Yeah, I've heard about that too. I've read that Ordu went from Turkish to Persian and became finally know as Urdu.
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zhiguli
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 Message 31 of 88
09 December 2007 at 5:13am | IP Logged 
You can watch some clips from Turkmen TV here and here:


And there are quite a few clips on youtube.

I've wondered about how intelligible it is to other Oguz language speakers. There's nothing especially weird with the spelling but besides that famous Turkmen "lisp" the pronunciation is a bit "distorted":

baş üstüne = baş üssünö (baş üththünö?)
mugallym = mollum
Aşgabatly = Aşğawatty

More examples here and here.
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zhiguli
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 Message 32 of 88
09 December 2007 at 5:17am | IP Logged 
A small list of Turkish words in Persian:

اردک ordak (ördək) duck
قاز qâz (qaz) goose
قو qu (qu) swan
درنا dornâ (durna) crane
قاشق qâshoq (qaşıq) spoon
قوطی quti (qutu) box
اطاق otâq (otaq - oda in Tr.) room
چی chi - the suffix çi, used for names of professions
and indeed اردو, which is defined as "camp" in one dictionary (Haim) but also "an army camp. an army. the Urdu language of Pakistan." in another (Aryanpur-Kashani).

A quick glance through the former (which notes the origin of all non-Persian words) gives the impression that there really aren't that many Turkish loan words in Persian, certainly less than ones I see labeled as French or English.

24karrot wrote:

As for other words, the only one I (think) was adopted from Turkish is barkhi...


Haim does not give anything for برخی.

Jerald wrote:
I would like to chime in a bit on mutual intelligibility between Turkic languages. I have an Azeri friend who tells me that mutual intelligibility between Turkish and Azerbaijani is grossly overestimated, and that he can only keep up with about 1/4 of what is said on, say, a Turkish talk show.


In writing it should be easier.
I've also met Turks who could not understand even a simple song in Azeri and were thrown by the smallest differences in vocabulary. But that said most Turks I've met could understand Azeri more or less and some could understand it perfectly, after all there are dialects in Turkey (Erzurum and Kars) that are a lot closer to Azeri than Istanbul Turkish. Thinking of the Americans/Canadians who have trouble understanding various British accents and need subtitles for them I'd say it's a very subjective thing.
All the Azeris I have asked, on the other hand (a much smaller sample to be sure) claimed to be able to understand both Istanbul Turkish and Turkmen and even Uzbek with no major problems.


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