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Turkish family of languages

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daristani
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5501 days ago

744 posts - 1644 votes 
Studies: Uzbek

 
 Message 49 of 88
13 November 2011 at 4:10pm | IP Logged 
On Balkan Turkish and its interactions with other Balkan language, the American linguist Victor A. Friedman has done a lot of work in recent years, and fortunately, almost his entire output of papers and articles is available at his website:

http://home.uchicago.edu/~vfriedm/cv.html#publications

This is a treasure-trove for anyone interested in Balkan languages and cultures and their interactions, and I think anyone with an interest in the topic would find a great deal of value in reading some of his writings. (He also factors in non-official languages such as Romani, etc., and he has some contributions on comparative obscenity as well.)

As for the "Ottoman" controversy above, I think the problem may in part lie in different interpretations of the word "Ottoman". In Turkey, and among Turkish speakers, "Ottoman" (or its Turkish counterpart, "Osmanlica") generally refers to the "high" Turkish literary language and culture of the Ottoman state, which indeed was a largely hybridized language that was far from the language spoken by the common people in Anatolia, the Balkans, or anywhere.

But outside of Turkey, and particularly among Europeans, "Ottoman" was often used, particularly in the past, to refer to the Turkish spoken in Turkey and by Turks from there as opposed to the other Turkic languages. (In German, for instance, which didn't have a distinction between "Turkic" and "Turkish," the expression "Osmantuerkisch" was employed to specify the variety of the language spoken in Turkey.)

So while the Turkish spoken by Balkan peasants wasn't "Ottoman" Turkish in the first sense above, i.e., that of the high literary language, it was "Ottoman" Turkish in the second sense in that it was largely imported from Anatolia and represented the Turkish spoken in the central portions of the Ottoman Empire.

   

Edited by daristani on 13 November 2011 at 4:25pm

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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 5513 days ago

4228 posts - 8256 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 50 of 88
13 November 2011 at 4:30pm | IP Logged 
daristani wrote:
On Balkan Turkish and its interactions with other Balkan language, the American linguist Victor A. Friedman has done a lot of work in recent years, and fortunately, almost his entire output of papers and articles is available at his website:

http://home.uchicago.edu/~vfriedm/cv.html#publications

This is a treasure-trove for anyone interested in Balkan languages and cultures and their interactions, and I think anyone with an interest in the topic would find a great deal of value in reading some of his writings. (He also factors in non-official languages such as Romani, etc., and he has some contributions on comparative obscenity as well.)

As for the "Ottoman" controversy above, I think the problem may in part lie in different interpretations of the word "Ottoman". In Turkey, and among Turkish speakers, "Ottoman" (or its Turkish counterpart, "Osmanlica") generally refers to the "high" Turkish literary language and culture of the Ottoman state, which indeed was a largely hybridized language that was far from the language spoken by the common people in Anatolia, the Balkans, or anywhere.

But outside of Turkey, and particularly among Europeans, "Ottoman" was often used, particularly in the past, to refer to the Turkish spoken in Turkey and by Turks from there as opposed to the other Turkic languages. (In German, for instance, which didn't have a distinction between "Turkic" and "Turkish," the expression "Osmantuerkisch" was employed to specify the variety of the language spoken in Turkey.)

So while the Turkish spoken by Balkan peasants wasn't "Ottoman" Turkish in the first sense above, i.e., that of the high literary language, it was "Ottoman" Turkish in the second sense in that it was largely imported from Anatolia and represented the Turkish spoken in the central portions of the Ottoman Empire.

   


If only more linguists were as generous as Friedman in offering that many of their monographs for public consumption. Thanks for the link.
1 person has voted this message useful



!LH@N
Triglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 5178 days ago

487 posts - 531 votes 
Speaks: German, Turkish*, English
Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Spanish

 
 Message 51 of 88
13 November 2011 at 4:42pm | IP Logged 
yes indeed, nothing to add to your post, daristani!
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daristani
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5501 days ago

744 posts - 1644 votes 
Studies: Uzbek

 
 Message 52 of 88
13 November 2011 at 5:47pm | IP Logged 
I'm glad you guys found the above comment useful. I agree that Friedman's making such a great volume of work freely available to everyone is exceedingly generous and useful, which is why I wanted to plug his website.

Another Turkologist who's put some very useful work on-line is Lars Johanson, at: http://www.turkiclanguages.com/www/LarsJohanson.html

Only a much smaller portion of his work is available to download, but there are still some real gems to be found (some written in German and some in English), especially on tense-aspect-modality issues among different Turkic languages.

One of his papers not available on-line in English, dealing with verb tense usage in Cypriot Turkish, is available in Turkish here:

http://yayinlar.yesevi.edu.tr/files/article/230.pdf

While searching for this last item, I ran across another short paper on Cypriot Turkish, describing some interesting interaction among English, Greek, and Turkish in the Turkish Cypriot dialect that also might be of interest:

http://yayinlar.yesevi.edu.tr/files/article/395.pdf


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Kartof
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3423 days ago

391 posts - 550 votes 
Speaks: English*, Bulgarian*, Spanish
Studies: Danish

 
 Message 53 of 88
13 November 2011 at 7:46pm | IP Logged 
Thanks for the extremely useful link and for hammering out the differences in our perceptions of what "Ottoman
Turkish" means daristani!
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za20
Newbie
Germany
Joined 2554 days ago

35 posts - 64 votes 
Speaks: English

 
 Message 54 of 88
31 May 2013 at 9:12pm | IP Logged 
From my experience, I can say that if two Turkic people meet and if they speak slowly and if they use basic words, they can easily communicate, at least everyday-conversation basic level. There is no problem. When I was in Germany, I had some Kazakh friends from Kazakhstan who had never exposure to Turkish before, we managed to communicate. The grammars of the Turkic Languages are almost the same. There are some pronounciation differences, and some wocabulary differences. If we use basic wocabulary, we can communicate.
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 5513 days ago

4228 posts - 8256 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 55 of 88
31 May 2013 at 9:31pm | IP Logged 
za20 wrote:
From my experience, I can say that if two Turkic people meet and if they speak slowly and if they use basic words, they can easily communicate, at least everyday-conversation basic level. There is no problem. When I was in Germany, I had some Kazakh friends from Kazakhstan who had never exposure to Turkish before, we managed to communicate. The grammars of the Turkic Languages are almost the same. There are some pronounciation differences, and some wocabulary differences. If we use basic wocabulary, we can communicate.


This is reminiscent of what I sometimes hear from Slavs (especially non-specalists who unduly downplay how divergent some Slavonic languages can be). The tricky part is that the level of effective communication varies from one situation to the next, and not only requires willigness to understand each other but also the level of background knowledge in everyone involved.

As to the grammars of the Turkic languages being almost the same, that seems faintly misleading from one approach, but hard to dispute from another.

As I study Turkish, I've also flipped through my Azeri, Kazakh and Uzbek textbooks and while I see that many of the grammatical concepts (or their rationale) are the same, the devil is in the details including order of the morphemes, forms, and guidelines for use. A good example is when I looked at Uzbek verb conjugation; it's a lot more involved than what it's in Turkish. It's vaguely similar to what a Pole would find when coming up against Bulgarian or Macedonian verb conjugation. Some of the endings are recognizable, and the concept of aspect is there, but when to use the endings, and how to construct intelligible phrases with the suitable marking for tense, aspect and mood are very different. I haven't even touched false friends.

In case you're interested, daristani and I put together a profile for the Turkic languages including a comparative summary of features in those languages of the group that are most likely to be studied by people on this forum.
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Jarel
Diglot
Groupie
Turkey
Joined 2683 days ago

57 posts - 77 votes 
Speaks: Turkish*, English
Studies: Italian, German

 
 Message 56 of 88
05 June 2013 at 4:19pm | IP Logged 
Sentence structure and word building is mostly the same, but the suffixes one uses to conjugates verbs differ from one Turkic language to another; even between accents.


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