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Turkish family of languages

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za20
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Germany
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36 posts - 29 votes
Speaks: English

 
 Message 81 of 88
23 November 2013 at 8:55pm | IP Logged 
Chung

I am not trying to make anyone believe. It is your problem, believe or not. I don't care about it. I am just speaking about realities and about my experiences.

I am speaking from my own experiences. Azeri, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Turkmen, Uzbek, Uighur, Tatar, Gagauz, Karakalpak, Turkish people can understand each other to some varying degrees and they can get by in those countries as long as they know their own language well and they know enough words.

There are a lot of people who are pretending to be Turkish or Kazakh. Some Kazakhs are really russified. They never speak their own language, even in their homes.

And if a person from Turkey says "I can never understand Kazakh", don't believe him/her at once. He/she maybe doesn't know Turkish well or maybe he/she has anti-Turkic Sentiment and politically oriented.

You came up some video files. I watched many of them. Although many of them are inaudible, I can understand what they are saying, at least general meaning.

Maybe, you have been learning Turkish, if so, you have been learning standart Turkish. maybe you will hear such a thing for the first time. It is that colloquial Turkish is much closer to other Turkic Languages than standart Turkish. There are many common structures, words used in both Colloquial Turkish and in other Turkic Languages. But these structures and words may not be used in standart Turkish or seldomly used.

Even Robert Lindsay puts the mutual intelligibility between Kazakh and Turkish at < 40%.
Look:
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/mutual-intelli gibility-among-the-turkic-languages/#comment-124843

And look at what other Turkic people say about it at this forum.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=76474

So it is your problem. Believe or not.

There have been attempts to create or to set a common Turkic Language, even at presidential level. The third summit of Turkic Speaking States was held on 16 August 2013 in Azerbaijan. Look at that page. You can see the presidents of Kazakhistan, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Turkey side by side.
http://www.turkkon.org/eng/icerik.php?no=159

I hope these attempts don't disturb you. :))

It is nonsense to compare the relations among Turkic Languages with the relations between Swedish and English . You can understand nothing except for only a few words in Swedish.

Finally, you are right about Chuvash, Sakha, Tofa Languages. We cannot understand these languages. Because they seperated from the main group of Turkic Languages long time ago. But they make up only a small group in Turkic Languages, less than 1%.








Edited by za20 on 23 November 2013 at 9:16pm

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Chung
Diglot
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 82 of 88
25 November 2013 at 8:24pm | IP Logged 
What've you just posted is a tacit retraction of your exchange from July 29, 2013 with Jarel as quoted below.

za20 wrote:
Jarel wrote:
I understood only 3 words in total in that text, two being "republic of kazakhstan" which i'm sure pretty obvious to any european language speaker. I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but no way in hell a native Turkish speaker can have this high passive understanding of Kazakh. Simply not possible.

Hey man

You can be rude, I do not care about it. It shows how quality a man you are. It is easy to be rude when you hear something opposite to your views. It is ok for me.

As for the text above that you did not understand, it is an official job announcement. Of course such official documents use a high-level language and high-level words.

I always say "Kazakh and Turkish speakers can communicate at everday-life basic level, if they speak slowly and if they use basic words."

I think your problem is the Cyrillic Alphabet. Now I will give you a link that contains a Kazakh Grammar book. That book uses both the Cyrillic and Latin Alphabets.
I am sure (if you are not prejudiced and if you don't have problems with Turkish), you will understand some 90 % of it. You will see how close Kazakh and Turkish are. You will see how mutually intelligible Kazakh and Turkish are, definetely much more mutually intelligible than you and some people claim.

Here is the link:
http://uz-translations.net/?category=kazbooks-kazakh&altname =introduction_to_kazak


All that you're now reporting is that there're varying amounts of mutual intelligibility between Turkish and all of the other Turkic languages. Big deal (it seems like a way to weasel out of assertions that escape testing or are intellectually dubious). This is a far cry from your earlier claim that an Anatolian Turk can understand 90% of the information in a book on Kazakh grammar (assuming that he/she knows the Kazakh alphabet) insinuating a likewise high level of mutual intelligibility between Turkish and Kazakh.

As for the rest of your post, I'm skeptical of any figures put out by Lindsay since according to his blog his source was just one informant. It's a rather small sample size not to mention an odd attempt at quantifying qualitative information. Moreover the cooperation between a bunch of politicians means squat linguistically although the gesture is an outgrowth of Pan-Turkism or Turanism (chances are that the people at this conference needed interpreters or used an intermediary language that they all knew fluently be it English or Russian. For example, I doubt that the Uzbek representatives seamlessly and readily understood a stream of Turkish from the Turkish representatives using just their native ability in Uzbek unless they already had learned enough Turkish before attending).

A glaring inconsistency is that native Turks and a Kazakh have disputed your claims about supposedly high mutual intelligibility between Turkish and non-Oğuz Turkic languages (Kazakh in particular). I've provided a study that attempts to quantify the divergence and it seems to corroborate the thrust of the others' arguments. As a language geek I have a problem when people distort or misreport linguistic aspects to align with ideology or politically-laden desires.
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za20
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Germany
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Speaks: English

 
 Message 83 of 88
25 November 2013 at 9:18pm | IP Logged 
[/QUOTE]
All that you're now reporting is that there're varying amounts of mutual intelligibility between Turkish and all of the other Turkic languages. Big deal (it seems like a way to weasel out of assertions that escape testing or are intellectually dubious). This is a far cry from your earlier claim that an Anatolian Turk can understand 90% of the information in a book on Kazakh grammar (assuming that he/she knows the Kazakh alphabet) insinuating a likewise high level of mutual intelligibility between Turkish and Kazakh.
[/QUOTE]

Yes a Turk can understand 90% of the sentences of this grammar book written in Latin Alphabet. What is the problem? But average mutual intelligibility between Kazakh and Turkish is less than %40, as Robert Lindsay said. What disturbs you here ?

I never said the mutual intelligibility among Turkic Languages is 100%. So what is the problem if the Presidents of Turkic Speaking States communicate through an interpreter, so they can fully understand each other.

Edited by za20 on 25 November 2013 at 9:46pm



Chung
Diglot
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 84 of 88
25 November 2013 at 9:43pm | IP Logged 
za20 wrote:
Quote:

All that you're now reporting is that there're varying amounts of mutual intelligibility between Turkish and all of the other Turkic languages. Big deal (it seems like a way to weasel out of assertions that escape testing or are intellectually dubious). This is a far cry from your earlier claim that an Anatolian Turk can understand 90% of the information in a book on Kazakh grammar (assuming that he/she knows the Kazakh alphabet) insinuating a likewise high level of mutual intelligibility between Turkish and Kazakh.


Yes a Turk can understand 90% of the sentences of this grammar book written in Latin Alphabet. What is the problem? But average mutual intelligibility between Kazakh and Turkish is less than %40, as Robert Lindsay said. What disturbs you here ?


Understanding contrived sentences in a grammar book is different from trying to understand authentic examples of the language be it from the news, eavesdropping on a conversation or trying to understand what someone is saying on the phone. When it comes to Robert Lindsay, I take his findings regardless of the percentages cited with a grain of salt because he relied on just one informant per his reference:

Robert Lindsay wrote:
Uygar Dokuzlar, Crimean Tatar speaker. April 2010. Personal communication.


I repeat: the trouble is that the mutual intelligibility between Turkic languages varies wildly. It's nowhere nearly as high for most Turkic languages as you've insinuated earlier, but no one, not even I, would dispute that there are varying degrees of mutual intelligibility within Turkic. It's conditional on medium (i.e. visual or spoken?), register (i.e. colloquial or formal?), background knowledge of Turkic languages (i.e. monoglot Turks or Turks with at least some ability in other Turkic languages other than the native one?), or subject matter and presentation (e.g. technical article with specialized vocabulary and no illustrations or short set of amply-illutsrated instructions?), in addition to established and demonstrable divergence (e.g. Turkish and Azeri are more mutually intelligible than Turkish and Kazakh, among other pairs).
2 persons have voted this message useful



za20
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Germany
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36 posts - 29 votes
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 Message 85 of 88
25 November 2013 at 9:48pm | IP Logged 
Read my first entry with number 54 and the other entry with number 71.

Edited by za20 on 25 November 2013 at 9:54pm



!LH@N
Triglot
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Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Spanish

 
 Message 86 of 88
25 November 2013 at 10:14pm | IP Logged 
Tamam ya kardesim, anladik. Sen bütün Türki dilleri sorunsun anliyorsun.
Ne mutlu sana!

Ama ben sana inanmayarak Chung'a katiliyorum. Kendi ve cevremin tecrübesi senin yazdiklarina zIt.

Hic birimiz sana katilmiyoruz, yani bunu daha fazla tartismanin anlami yok.

Iyi günler,
Ilhan



za20
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Germany
Joined 1637 days ago

36 posts - 29 votes
Speaks: English

 
 Message 87 of 88
25 November 2013 at 11:11pm | IP Logged 
Ben hiçbir zaman Türki dilleri yüzde yüz sorunsuz anlıyorum demedim. İlgili entrilerime bakabilirsin. Ben de önceden Türki Dilleri çok farklı sanırdım ama bu dilleri okudum, inceledim, o ülkelerden birçok arkadaşım oldu, birebir onlarla iletişim kurdum ve anladım ki dillerimiz iddia edildiği kadar farklı değillermiş. Eğer bir gün Türk Dilleri ile ilgili kitaplar okursan birbirine ne kadar yakın olduğunu göreceksin. Benim karşı olduğum şu: İnternette ve medyada Türk dillerinin çok farklı olduğu üzerine yoğun bir propaganda var. Maalesef bu propagandaya bazı Türkler ve bazı Türki halklar da bilerek veya bilmeyerek veya politik sebeplerle alet oluyorlar. Yukarda linki verilen latin alfabesiyle yazılmış Kazakça dilbilgisi kitabını aç oku bakalım. Eminim yüzde doksanını hemen anlayacaksın.

Hadi iyi geceler.

Edited by za20 on 25 November 2013 at 11:13pm

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za20
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Germany
Joined 1637 days ago

36 posts - 29 votes
Speaks: English

 
 Message 88 of 88
08 September 2017 at 7:06pm | IP Logged 
Someone has given the best answer so far on this web site. The link:
https://www.fluther.com/17056/which-languages-are-mutually-i ntelligible/

He/she says:

''Between Turkic Languages, there is mutual intelligibilty in varying degrees.
Roughly:
Turkish-Azeri: % 80
Turkish-Turkmen: % 50
Turkish-Uighur: % 30
Turkish-Uzbek: % 30
Turkish-Kazakh % 20
Turkish-Kyrgyz: % 20
Kazakh-Kyrgyz: % 70
Kazakh-Uzbek: % 60
Kazakh-Uighur: % 40
Kazakh-Turkmen: % 30
Uzbek-Uighur: % 70

Even if there is a low degree of mutual intellibility between some Turkic Languages,
they still can have a basic conversation in a daily basis, such as buying, selling,
asking way, speaking about weather, asking for help, emergency situations, hospital,
pharmacy, ordering a meal at a restaurant, buying ticket and so other basic daily life
situations.''

Additionally, there is good news, Kazakhstan will switch to the Latin alphabet by
2025. Next year, in 2018, the process will begin and slowly everything will be in
Latin alphabet by 2025. So our languges will come closer to each other much more.

Kyrgyzstan will remain the last Turkic country to keep using the Cyrillic alphabet.
I hope they will switch to the Latin alphabet soon.

Edited by za20 on 08 September 2017 at 7:21pm




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