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The ’I Hate Korean’ Thread

 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages Post Reply
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clumsy
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 Message 121 of 131
08 November 2012 at 7:50pm | IP Logged 
IronFist wrote:
clumsy wrote:
Talking about 'b' vs 'm' :
They have mentioned the problem on a podcast I am listening to these days, they say something about m
with air released through nose, or somthing like this.
I have actually the same problem, but I though it's only the case with the word for 'yes'.


Which podcast?

I think it was koreanclass101
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Leurre
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 Message 122 of 131
08 November 2012 at 9:55pm | IP Logged 
Bao wrote:
clumsy wrote:
Talking about 'b' vs 'm' :
They have mentioned the problem on a podcast I am listening to these days, they say
something about m
with air released through nose, or somthing like this.
I have actually the same problem, but I though it's only the case with the word for
'yes'.

You automatically release the air through the nose when uttering 'm' because your mouth
is closed (lips are shut) and when saying 'n' because your tongue blocks off the air
stream.

The reason why those sounds often sound like b/d to our ears are because they are very
short when pronounced correctly, but the actual movement of the mouth is more
comparable to German or English m/n sounds.
I also think the following vowel gets a more nasal quality in Korean because you
pronounce it using the air you've already released through your nose?


You guys kill me
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Bao
Diglot
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 Message 123 of 131
08 November 2012 at 10:52pm | IP Logged 
That was no attempt at stand up comedy, though. Sorry.
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Leurre
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 Message 124 of 131
09 November 2012 at 6:32am | IP Logged 
Doesnt make it any less amusing~
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Bao
Diglot
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 Message 125 of 131
09 November 2012 at 10:20am | IP Logged 
I wonder which route you went, are you one of those few gifted people who can naturally perceive foreign language sounds well; did you make your own crutches trying to perceive foreign language phonemes correctly, or did you learn their representation in writing and from knowing what sound was supposed to be there, trained your perception?
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MarcusOdim
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 Message 126 of 131
12 December 2012 at 2:10am | IP Logged 
It's a bit unrelated, but I found it pretty interesting "Korean language rises in Kathmandu, Nepal "
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Leurre
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 Message 127 of 131
12 December 2012 at 2:37am | IP Logged 
Bao wrote:
I wonder which route you went, are you one of those few gifted people who
can naturally perceive foreign language sounds well; did you make your own crutches
trying to perceive foreign language phonemes correctly, or did you learn their
representation in writing and from knowing what sound was supposed to be there, trained
your perception?


Since this topic came back up again (interesting video by the way! I left my comment in
Korean!) I'm not quite sure what this (quoted section) means though. I listened to words
and saw how what was being said was written... Probably for that reason going through
where you place your tongue, and the technical parts of your last post were amusing.

Edited by Leurre on 12 December 2012 at 3:01am

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Bao
Diglot
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 Message 128 of 131
12 December 2012 at 11:33pm | IP Logged 
What I meant was: Korean phonology is quite different from the ones of any other language you or I speak.

I read that there are some people who are naturally talented at perceiving and remembering unique sounds. People who are good imitating other people and people's accents and, unsurprisingly, many hyperpolyglots belong to that category. Those I called the 'few gifted people' who do not have to work as hard for their TL pronunciation/auditory comprehension as others do, but who can't be used as a yardstick for those who do not have the same talent.

Those not belonging to that category share one hurdle: They have to learn how to perceive target language sounds with new phoneme boundaries when what their brain processes is already filtered through a perception trained by one's native and fluent languages.
In a target language that shares many phonemes with one you already know, even if they are only allophones, picking up the new ones is fairly easy using elimination. But without a representation of a sound in your mind, you won't be able to perceive that sound correctly. One possibility is to try to map that sound to one you already know, as your 'personal allophone', despite there being one or two other, different sounds that you also have to map to the same known phoneme. That's what happens with Germans who say 'fink' instead of 'think' (not because they learnt Cockney). Many people go that route; they first learn an approximate representation of words and if the need arises, they later use their knowledge about the language to decide whether the word they just heard should be 'think' or 'fink'. Some quickly learn to hear the actual difference, others don't.
There are many good speakers of a second language who have a passable accent and can use known words just fine, but when confronted with unknown words they can't decide which phoneme is used.

Another way to go is to practice with minimal pairs in an environment that forces you to decide which phoneme you just heard and then gives you immediate feedback. It's supposedly rather quick to learn a new phoneme (or colour) that way, but you need actual minimal pairs for it to work.

Now, I have some kind of irregularity in my higher level auditory processing. Most of the time it's no big deal, but I have trouble understanding speech against background noise - and remembering unique phonemes. I cope by looking at the person talking to me and in my imagination mimicking the way their mouth moves so I can 'feel' the sound and recognize it. That is my 'crutch'. I personally need it in order to learn anything in a foreign language. Other people may not be reliant on such a strategy, but if stroke victims make better progress improving their speech when they are let to watch the way other people enunciate slowly and clearly, I hazard a guess that the same possibility of learning how to produce sound from mirroring seen movement can be used by anyone. That's why I wrote that post.

Edited by Bao on 16 December 2012 at 3:28am



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