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Sense/feeling of style | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Time to learn | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| PinkCordelia Diglot Newbie Wales Joined 4623 days ago 31 posts - 77 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: Italian, Welsh | Message 1 of 21 06 November 2011 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've not been able to find a previous discussion of this topic although perhaps it
overlaps with ideas of 'fluency'. I'm interested to know about the experiences of people who believe they have a real 'feel' for a language learned as an adult. An example will clarify what I mean. When speaking French, I would KNOW perhaps if someone used a slang term, or KNOW that a complete stranger had used the informal 'tu' when speaking to me, but I wouldn't FEEL it. My reaction would be entirely intellectual with no emotional/gut reaction - no thinking 'how vulgar' or anything in the way I might to my native language. Similarly, when reading Italian, I KNOW which features might be characteristic of a medieval text but have absolutely no FEELING that it's old-fashioned. So if you do have that feeling/sense of style in a second language learned as an adult I'd be interested to know at what point you achieved it. I know these things are hard to quantify but maybe 'living there for 10 years' or 'having a child who speaks the language' might be the sort of thing. Or did you achieve it more easily? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4671 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 2 of 21 06 November 2011 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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There's something in it, because while reading something in foreign language (i think about English mainly) i don't take it as emotional as I would in Polish. Similarly, I hate using vulgarisms (as well as hearing them) in my native language, but I'm standing impassive hearing it in English films or songs OR even finding it quite, let's say "interesting".
On the other hand, when I hear ordinary people swearing in another Slavic language (mainly Russian, because I can see them the most often in my city) I feel as same disgusted as hearing Poles swearing. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hjordis Senior Member United States snapshotsoftheworld. Joined 4998 days ago 209 posts - 264 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 3 of 21 06 November 2011 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'd say I'm this way with Japanese, but I started learning it when I was 14 so I don't know if that counts for what you meant by as an adult.
I think it's funny when people say Japanese must be so hard. Compared to French, which I started learning only a couple months later, it feels so much more real and natural to me. I feel emotions in Japanese the same way I do in English that I don't in French and German. Part of this might be because I like it more so I've spent so much more time with it. Another part might simply be because I'm better at it, but like you said even if I understand something in French it doesn't affect me the way it would someone with this feel for the language. Honestly I think a major factor is the fact that I learned French in a classroom but I learned Japanese on my own. I've spent a lot of time with real Japanese media, but almost none with French(I'm taking it back up on my own so hopefully this will change!), and I think that's what helped me feel the language more than anything. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5411 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 4 of 21 06 November 2011 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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After having read enormous amounts of texts in a language, I feel it, when someone uses old-fashioned or slangy expressions. But the great exception are swear words.
For example, when someone uses the V**ze word in German, I am realy revolted and disgusted. If I encounter the same word as English c**t, I know only intelectually: There you are, that is that terrible word, but I don't feel it in the way I do in German. I think, that is one of the few points, were my mother tongue will be always exculsive. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4640 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 5 of 21 06 November 2011 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||
On that last English word, this is still fairly taboo in British English TV, radio and newspapers I think. Contrast with the "F" word, which used to be taboo, but is now heard all the time. I used to be (relatively) shocked to hear it fairly regularly on "The Sopranos" (which is from HBO, a satellite channel in the USA I believe, and hence seems to have different rules from the major networks), even though I first heard the word in primary school, and it was in fairly common use "on the street", as it were. At one level it seems silly to be shocked by a word, but it clearly carries a lot of "baggage" associated with the culture, and (I suppose) some sort of inherent shame people used to feel about their bodies, which has somehow carried forward into the "modern" age. (I have not come across the German "V" word, BTW - clearly my education is still a bit lacking!). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5146 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 6 of 21 07 November 2011 at 12:49am | IP Logged | ||
Neither have I, and I would guess that this is taboo in most languages. In Spain however, I heard it used daily, but was absolutely desperate when my Spanish friends wanted to know how you said that it Norwegian. I had literally never, ever, used that word,(I was 11), and I would have been grounded for a month if my mother had heard me say it. I ended up whispering it in the ear of a friend, beetroot red, and she just laughed and did not understand what the big deal was. Swear words is perhaps the area where it is most difficult to feel a foreign language. When you listen to American TV, and also some British shows you get the impression that the f-word is used constantly. Not in real life, though. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 4942 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 7 of 21 07 November 2011 at 1:14am | IP Logged | ||
I think it takes a long time really living in the country to get past an intellectual level to where you would emotionally feel the impact of certain vulgarities. I'm guessing it comes with learning and being constantly exposed to the culture associated with the vulgarity (ie. why a certain word is used for a certain situation.) R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| rivere123 Senior Member United States Joined 4642 days ago 129 posts - 182 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 8 of 21 07 November 2011 at 2:32am | IP Logged | ||
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Of course, before a word gives you the kind of emotion that a curse word may, you're brain will need to observe how others react. You've been taught since you were a little kid that curse words are bad, especially because of the overly shocked responses and the punishments involved. As an adult this thinking is reinforced; your place of worship, employment, and learning would never allow such things.
Simply learning the word after one interaction or because you were curious won't stack up against years of learning your native equivalent. Even if you have traveled to a country numerous times and got a good command of informal as well as formal chat, you won't come across the word as often as you might if you lived there. There is also the fact that the word may evoke somewhat different reactions in the native language as well. As for not feeling differently about archaic writing, it may be the fact that all words are learned equally, excepting those used very often. Those often, however, will likely be the same in older scripts. Unless you've been studying the language for a while, the modern and ancient words will be learned at a similar time (if you decide to read archaic texts early), maybe only a few days or weeks apart. You haven't yet had some experiences with the modern words that will set them apart from the archaic ones, and so they all sound foreignish to you. There could also be two other reasons. Maybe the scripts aren't old enough, things from two hundred years ago won't be hard to understand. The second is that if you read old stuff enough, it sounds similar in your head. Have you ever taken the initiative to read the Bible or some other older book for a period of time? After reading it regularly, you get used to it, kind of like an accent. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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