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Language classes do NOT work | ||
Tags: Class Learning | School Education | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4493 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 81 of 116 17 November 2013 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't always use Assimil as intended though. I just see it as bilingual graded readers and I do the translations but I don't drill the sentences in Anki or anything. I just let that flow. I also often dispense with parts of the active wave if I feel it is unnecessary. Michel Thomas I have no experience with.
Feedback is the most important thing and that is why I enjoy 1-on-1 tutoring. The best tutor I have had in that regard so far was my Russian teacher, and which is why I have been able to systematically work on improving that language for a long time. I am doing the same thing with my French right now. You can get feedback in a classroom situation, of course, but it becomes very contrived for the most part, especially with students that study at different speeds. I tend to be someone who works ahead and knows the answer first to everything which means that within 3 minutes of a class I will get bored and want to watch the time tick by. That's why I prefer tailored tutoring 1-on-1 because the material can be personalized to my interests as well (general classrooms use more general topics which is usually zzzz if I just want to discuss football or nuclear energy or mosasaurs.) Edited by tarvos on 17 November 2013 at 8:37pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| I'm With Stupid Senior Member Vietnam Joined 3959 days ago 165 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Vietnamese | Message 82 of 116 17 November 2013 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Very rarely. There are a number of ways new vocabulary will come up. Most obviously would be in reading or listening tasks. In conversations, the student will often not know the word for something, but will then describe what they mean using other words (an important skill in itself) and I'll tell them the word they need. Another common method is for the teacher to simply offer a word that is more appropriate for their needs. So for example, the student has written a ghost story and included the line "the man walked across the dark room." Nothing wrong there, but it would be a good opportunity to introduce the word "crept" to them, which then requires minimal explanation, because the student already knows what they're communicating. In terms of practising newly learned vocab, there's a huge amount of possibilities here. Let's imagine, for example, we're learning phrases that we can use to react to good or bad news. So they've initially appeared in a listening exercise, we've briefly drilled them, perhaps drawing particular attention to an aspect of pronunciation we're focusing on today. Now at this stage, you could in theory get them to open the listening script and practice it in pairs, but as you say, it would be incredibly tedious and not at all creative. They could write a dialogue about someone getting some news using the phrases and read it out to the class, which would be a vaguely creative use of the language, but not a very realistic use of English, and not involve any real communication. Or you can get them to think of some real good or bad news they've had recently in their own lives and get them to tell this to other students, who would then be encouraged to react using the phrases that we've learnt previously, but otherwise carry on the conversation as normal. It might even be that you do one of the more controlled activities before this to give them some more practice, but this free conversation should be the bulk of the lesson. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| I'm With Stupid Senior Member Vietnam Joined 3959 days ago 165 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Vietnamese | Message 83 of 116 17 November 2013 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
This might not interest you if you're not a teacher, but Dogme Language Teaching is basically what you just described tailored to a classroom setting. It's something I've been implementing in my own classroom and relies on the students to provide the majority of the language for the lesson, rather than the more traditional way of the teacher coming to class with some language that he expects them to learn by the end. It's a far more reactive method of teaching, offering students language as they need it, pointing out structures that the students might not have noticed, and building activities around things that have come up in conversation. It's surprisingly effective. I've had elementary level students having hour-long conversations about things they thought they'd struggle to speak about for 1 minute previously. I think another often-ignored aspect of learning is the opportunity to try again. It's all well and good to get feedback, but it means nothing if you don't then get to apply it. This is an area where the classroom can help students to do this without getting too bored, because you can have the constantly loop of conversation - feedback - new partner. So you can have the same conversation 5 times and not get bored, because it's not actually the same conversation, it's simply the same subject, and each time your partner has something different to say and slightly different questions to ask you. But you're getting better and better at your side of the conversation, because you're constantly tweaking and improving with the help of the teacher and even your fellow students. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5216 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 84 of 116 17 November 2013 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think that @I'm with stupid is doing a brillant job defending the idea that the classroom can be an effective place
of learning. I have nothing to add. Just the whole idea of painting all language classes with the same brush makes my blood boil. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4076 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 85 of 116 17 November 2013 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It obviously depends on the teacher/lecturer/professor as well. From secondary school
up until university (postgradaute), I have only had two modules wherein the lecturer had a teaching style that helped me tremendously and wherein I succeeded; this was in university (undergraduate) for differential equations, and also nonlinear dynamics. The rest of lecturers I had, including foreign languages and every other module in secondary school, undergradute, and postgraduate, I thought were not very outstanding. For example, in Spanish, I was around fourteen years old when after two years of Spanish, only then was the imperfect indicate introducted; too slow for me. So obviously I prefer self-study. If I enroled in a foreign language module wherein the lecturer were like that D.E. lecturer, then my opinion would probably change. As previously aforementioned, the problem is to find a class wherein the lecturer and class set-up are very good and corresponding to one's learning style. For me this has insofar not happened. Also the finance matters. If one has to pay €1000 for a class, and one's financial situation has changed into worrying about having enough food for the family, self-study is almost always more sensical. Edited by 1e4e6 on 17 November 2013 at 11:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4451 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 86 of 116 17 November 2013 at 11:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What's a "healthy" language learning method? I mean, I am with you in that I'm far from being among those who enjoy "drill" activities in my learning, but if some people do enjoy it or at least feel it is worth the boredom, more power to them, I guess. Edited by tastyonions on 17 November 2013 at 11:18pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4493 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 87 of 116 17 November 2013 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've had the experience that very little classroom activity of anything has helped me develop my skills. Languages included. If you put someone in a classroom and make it a full-time job, no shit they'll learn. If you use remotely useful activities people will even hit your targets. But whether it is enjoyable or efficacious enough is a question open to debate. I have yet to see a single class that has taught me things I care about now. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4408 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 88 of 116 17 November 2013 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Why does learning always have to be enjoyable? Sometimes sheer grind is the best way forward and that
isn't always fun. I always associate "language classes" with adults voluntarily signing up for a course. That means they are motivated and have a reason to learn. If they can meet like-minded people and get expert advice from a tutor, that can only be a good thing. School classes often involve herding kids into a room and trying to teach them a language they aren't remotely interested in and one they know they will never use. I would imagine that being a school language teacher can often be a totally draining and demoralising experience. Okay, you'll get a few who are interested and the academic top-end who would willingly study the phone book if you placed it in front of them, but the reality is that most of your charges won't give a damn. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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