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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan

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ellasevia
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Japan
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Studies: Mandarin, Persian, Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 1401 of 1511
05 April 2015 at 9:19pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
EL: Και επίσης διάβασα λίγα ελληνικά - τώρα θα έχω μάθημα στα ελληνικά το βράδυ και
πρέπει να μάθω ένα κείμενο για τα Χανιά, μια πόλη στην Κρήτη, που θα μείνω στο
φθινόπωρο.

I corrected the three errors that stood out to me most in your Greek text. λίγο is an adverb, so it would be correct if someone asks you how much Greek you speak and you respond "λίγο" (or even "λιγάκι"). But if you want to use it as an adjective to quantify something, then it must have gender/number/case agreement with the thing you're quantifying, and since ελληνικά is a plural neuter noun, then the form must be λίγα.

The second is probably a very common mistake -- Χανιά is actually a plural noun, even though it's the name of a city, so the correct article is τα rather than η, as you would expect. There are plenty of Greek place names that are actually plural nouns -- Δελφοί (Delphi) and Ροβιές (Rovies, a village where some of my family lives), for example. So to say that you are going to Delphi, Rovies, or Chania, you would say: πηγαίνω στους Δελφούς // στις Ροβιές // στα Χανιά.

The last thing was probably just a typo -- you had written "μια ένα κείμενο", so I just deleted the μια since it's not necessary.

Και τι ώραια που θα πας στα Χανιά το φθινόπωρο! Τί θα κάνεις εκεί πέρα; Η οικογένεια της μάνας μου έρχεται από τα Χανιά, και επισκέφθηκα την πόλη για πρώτη μου φορά το περασμένο καλοκαίρι (εννοώ, για πρώτη φορά στη μνήμη μου -- πήγα στην Κρήτη με τους γονείς μου όταν ήμουνα μωρό, αλλά βεβαίως δεν το θυμάμαι καθόλου). Μου άρεσαν πάρα πολύ, είναι μια πανέμορφη πόλη με μια πολύ ενδιαφέρουσα ιστορία. Το μόνο πράγμα που δε μου άρεσε τόσο πολύ ήταν η ζέστη -- πήγα στο τέλος Ιουνίου, και κάθε μέρα έκανε σχεδόν 40 βαθμούς έξω. Θέλαμε να πάμε στην παραλία ή να κάνουμε βόλτα στην πόλη, αλλά έκανε τόσο πολλή ζέστη που δεν μπορούσαμε καν να βγούμε έξω από το ξενοδοχείο μας μέχρι το βράδυ!

Edited by ellasevia on 05 April 2015 at 9:29pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
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China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2816 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 1402 of 1511
06 April 2015 at 1:08am | IP Logged 
Σ'ευχαριστώ Ελλασεύβοια! Θα κάνω μαθήματα για καθηγητής των αγγλικών εκεί, γιατί θέλω να
γίνω καθηγητής. Λυπάμαι, τα ελληνικά μου δεν είναι πάρα πολύ καλά, κάνω πολλά λάθη.
Λοιπόν, θέλω να διδάξω και τα ρωσικά.

Edited by tarvos on 07 April 2015 at 5:44am

1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2816 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 1403 of 1511
07 April 2015 at 3:24am | IP Logged 
IT: Ieri ho letto un poco su Wikipedia sopra l'esperanto in Italiano. E molto
attrattivo imparare l'esperanto invece, ma ancora non ho tempo per una lingua più.
Però questa lingua è molto importante per i poliglotti del mondo, perciò credo che
imparerò l'esperanto nell'avvenire. Ho marcato Lernu! como materiale utile.

CH: 我也学了中文。我的口音进步了,可是我 还不懂很高水平的中文。昨天的课很有意思 ,我跟老师
说话,我告诉了他很多我的中国生活的故事, 这个很有意思。昨天我见一个女人在路上,我 在 长等坐下
了,她开始跟我说话,她告诉我她是法轮大法 。。。 我得跑了。。。

EN: Yesterday I also watched Benny Lewis's interview with a Buddhist monk in Xi'an in
Esperanto, of which I understood a lot (but I still need to practice more Esperanto
before I can write in it here; see my comments in Italian above).

РУ: Я наконец-то дочитал книжку "игра в отрезанный палец", но он скорее всего меня
разочаровал. Главные протагонисты не очень развитые или интересные персонажи, их
личности плохо разработаны, и очень сложно идентифицироваться с ними. Конец книги
вообще ужасным был - автор никакого напряжения не создал, все спокойно закончилось,
без всякого климакса или решения. Позже я подробнее об этом расскажу в блоге - но не
сейчас. Это надо будет хорошо придумано, из-за того, что я действительно хочу написать
качественную статью. То подождите еще пару дней.

SV: Istället har jag nu börjat med hundraåringen som klev ut genom fönstret och
försvann, och det verkar vara lite mer intressant än sistnämnda boken (som skulle ha
varit det om slutet hade inte varit en så stor besvikelse). Och nu är jag på jobbet -
men det finns inte mycket att göra, för jag har bara en lektion på torsdag - och
hälften är redan förberedd eftersom jag har några saker kvar från sista lektionen att
ta mig itu med.

Edited by tarvos on 07 April 2015 at 5:50am

1 person has voted this message useful



ellasevia
Decaglot
Winner TAC 2011
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 4251 days ago

2150 posts - 3229 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Croatian, Greek, Japanese, Turkish, Italian
Studies: Mandarin, Persian, Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 1404 of 1511
07 April 2015 at 5:17am | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Ευχαριστώ Ελλασέβια! Θα κάνω μαθήματα για καθηγητής των αγγλικών εδώ, γιατί θέλω να
γίνω καθηγητής. Λυπάμαι, τα ελληνικά μου δεν είναι πάρα πολύ καλά, κάνω πολλά λάθη.
Λοιπόν, θέλω να διδάξω και τα ρωσικά.

I've left you a couple more corrections (in bold) for your Greek text above. I didn't quite understand what you meant by the part in italics, though. Were you trying to say that you're going to take classes for becoming an English teacher "here" (as in, in China)? Or were you saying that you're going to teach English in Greece?

I also changed the accent in your transliteration of my username to fit my own pronunciation of it. :) Technically, a better rendering of it in Greek would be Ελλασεύβοια, because I meant it as a compound of Ελλάς and Εύβοια (the island) when I created it.

tarvos wrote:
CH: 我也学了中文。我的口音进步了,可是我 还不懂很高水平的中文。昨天的很有意思 ,我老师
说 话,我告诉了他很多我的中国生活的故事,这 个很有意思。昨天我见一个女人在路上,我在 长等
了,开始我说告诉我是法大法 。。。 我得跑了。。。

I also corrected the character mistakes that I noticed in your Chinese text above. I changed 还没明白 to 还不懂 as well, because 明白 doesn't really make sense to me in this context, certainly not with 没. As far as I understand, 明白 means "understand" in the sense of something like "it's (not) clear to me" or "I (don't) see what you mean".

Edited by ellasevia on 07 April 2015 at 5:39am

2 persons have voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2816 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 1405 of 1511
07 April 2015 at 5:39am | IP Logged 
A few words on interference

I see the word interference bandied about a lot on this forum, but as a polyglot (I
guess, the audacity) that has experience with several languages from similar families,
I do not find interference from other languages to be much of a problem. I don't have
any problems, keeping, say, French and Italian apart, or even Italian and Spanish. To
me all these different languages occupy different slots in my brain, as long as it
takes a certain amount of work to ascertain whether that language is truly a different
language (as in the case of Spanish and Italian) or almost a variation of a single
language, but more akin to a fairly separate dialect (Norwegian and Swedish).

The difference here is that for Spanish and Italian the whole phonology, grammar, and
spelling rules occupy different positions in my mind. I simply cannot speak Spanish
and Italian in the same way - their phonology is very different, many of the basic
words differ and I constantly have to adapt to a different set of grammar rules. Yes,
there is a huge amount of shared vocabulary, but that is an advantage: this
simply means that if I know how to Italianize a Spanish word, I can use it in speech.
This is useful for my interlocutor because it makes it easier for them to puzzle out
what I'm saying. Thus I don't see the big deal if you use a Spanish word in your
Italian, so long as you make sure to Italianize it from its origins (if you're sure
that you can use this word; sometimes you can't, but experience irons that kind of
thing out).

The reason that people get frustrated over this is because it is a mistake. Yes, if
you say "comere" instead of "mangiare" this is indeed another word and it may be less
understood if at all. But for all those instances, saying io/yo isn't a big
difference. Saying populazione instead of población is not a big deal. The reason I
really wouldn't mind at the beginner stage is that it gives you an instant ability to
communicate right off the bat. You may not be communicating 100%
correctly
, but you're a beginner. That was never on the cards in the first place.
Making mistakes is a part of learning to speak a foreign language (I have made more
than I can count) and the risk you run of butchering a single vocabulary item doesn't
weigh up against all the words you get for free. Just make sure to keep the languages
phonologically distinct in your head (easy for Spanish/Italian/Portuguese: Portuguese
is the nasal one that drops vowels, Italian is the uber-melodic singsongy one, and
Spanish the machine-gun variant). These languages, even though I don't speak them
perfectly at all, thus don't occupy the same brainspace.

Now what if you want to learn both at the same time?

Well, you can, but here the problem is not one of interference but more of time
management. Maybe initially you will mix up some grammar rules and vocab, but more
often than not those rules will be similar anyway, so the consequences are going to be
mild. However time management is a much greater issue if you tackle two languages at
the same time. At this point in time I am tackling a new language (Italian) alongside
older ones (Greek, Mandarin, perhaps Russian) but all these old languages are
languages I have spoken for a long time and have a good level in (and are practically
not in the same group as Italian anyways), and in some cases they are indispensable to
my current situation. I'm learning these languages not simply because I am a language
nerd (ok that is a part of it), but also because I actually plan to live in Greece and
because I actually may have to move to Italy and because I plan to teach Russian.
These are all concrete goals, along with Mandarin which is the language of the place I
live in. And that requires time management skills. My progress in Mandarin is slow
because of this, but given that I have the basics that's all right. But that's not a
question of interference; I don't generally produce a lot of Italian in my Greek
(except for saying si instead of ναι) a few times; shit happens, and I self-
corrected).

What constitutes a (paradoxically) harder situation is the one of Swedish and
Norwegian where both are considered languages of their respective country, but to
speak one is to speak of the other to 90%. These languages occupy the same brainspace
because the differences are mostly in vocabulary (and some in grammar, but these are
minor). The phonology works in a similar way, and although in Norwegian the verb
endings are spelt differently, it's exactly the same principle. The phonologies are
similar enough that if you simply speak Norwegian words with a Swedish accent that it
is 100% understandable, since very few phonological differences exist that would
impair communication.

The trick here is, and I'm taking a leaf out of Iversen's book, is to reanalyze the
languages as two independent ones. This is hard because you should stop realizing
every Norwegian as a Swedish one, but you should concentrate on what makes the
Norwegian phonology typically Norwegian (and learn the specific Norwegian words and
spellings). In the beginning you will still sound heavily Swedish, but you can remove
this issue if you analyse Norwegian as a separate entity in your brain. Thus when I
speak Norwegian nowadays I analyse it as Norwegian, not as adapted Swedish. This
reanalysis is something you need to force yourself to do if you want to speak actual
Norwegian despite the mutual intelligibility between the two languages, similarly to
how you separate Spanish and Italian, or Dutch and German, where things also bleed
over, but not to the same extent. And yes, when you don't know, you still take
advantage of the similarities, but you pronounce the word à la Norwegian, not Swedish.
Perfecting this sort of thing takes time, though, and is unpopular because it's a lot
of effort for a language that is already available quickly after a few hours; but this
is the procedure you need to work with.

And interference isn't causing the problem; your Swedish isn't interfering with your
Norwegian, you're simply speaking Swedish because you can't speak actual Norwegian,
and speaking Swedish is generally understood.

Interference between things like Arabic and Lao is just weird, and if that happens...
well... I want to know about the circumstances.

Interference also goes away (when it occasionally happens) the better your level at a
certain language. Simply make use of the advantages related languages give in grammar
and vocabulary, and remember that a mixup using a related language is much more likely
to lead to actual communication with native speakers than no interference at all, but
not speaking is. Communication is the goal, especially if you live in-country, and
effectively using the language as a vehicle to communicate is on 99% of people's
eventual to-do lists.

And if you're just learning to read and understand, then interference doesn't play a
role because this is about active use of the language and that's the only time
interference comes into play.
2 persons have voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2816 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 1406 of 1511
07 April 2015 at 5:54am | IP Logged 
ellasevia wrote:

I've left you a couple more corrections (in bold) for your Greek text above. I didn't
quite understand what you meant by the part in italics, though. Were you trying to say
that you're going to take classes for becoming an English teacher "here" (as in, in
China)? Or were you saying that you're going to teach English in Greece?


I mixed up εδώ and εκεί. I am going to take TEFL classes in Crete, in Greece. Here in
China I am doing an internship. Thanks for the corrections, my Greek is pretty middle-
of-the-road. I would say I have hit the intermediate stage just because I can form
most phrases on my own, but I often screw up a lot of grammatical details and
sometimes I just blunder (I don't even know why I said please instead of thank you.)

Quote:
I also changed the accent in your transliteration of my username to fit my own
pronunciation of it. :) Technically, a better rendering of it in Greek would be
Ελλασεύβοια, because I meant it as a compound of Ελλάς and Εύβοια (the island) when I
created it.


Didn't know that. Thanks!


Quote:
I also corrected the character mistakes that I noticed in your Chinese text
above. I changed 还没明白 to 还不懂 as well, because 明白 doesn't really make sense to
me in this context, certainly not with 没. As far as I understand, 明白 means
"understand" in the sense of something like "it's (not) clear to me" or "I (don't) see
what you mean".


Ah, right. That makes sense. I hate homophones. But then again that just shows that I
need to be more resolute about learning my characters.
1 person has voted this message useful



tristano
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Netherlands
Joined 2156 days ago

905 posts - 1262 votes 
Speaks: Italian*, Spanish, French, English
Studies: Dutch

 
 Message 1407 of 1511
07 April 2015 at 1:45pm | IP Logged 
Cool to see you learning Italian :)

Quote:

IT: Ieri ho letto un poco su Wikipedia sopra l'esperanto in Italiano. E molto
attrattivo imparare l'esperanto invece, ma ancora non ho tempo per una lingua più.
Però questa lingua è molto importante per i poliglotti del mondo, perciò credo che
imparerò l'esperanto nell'avvenire. Ho marcato Lernu! como materiale utile.


Dunque hai letto un po' sull'esperanto / a proposito dell'esperanto in Italiano. Anche
io penso che sia attraente la prospettiva di impararlo. La community esperantista
sembra essere molto attiva, unita ed amichevole, almeno guardandola dall'esterno. Non
so che background hai in Italiano ma penso che scrivi gia' molto bene.
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2816 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 1408 of 1511
07 April 2015 at 3:33pm | IP Logged 
Non ho nessuna istoria. Questo è la prima volta che imparo l'italiano. Ma ho imparato
altre lingue romaniche nell'avanza, certo.


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