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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan

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Teango
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 Message 177 of 1511
26 June 2012 at 8:30pm | IP Logged 
Well done on your first multilingual vlog! If I didn't already know you were Dutch, I'd have initially thought you were British. :)
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mrwarper
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 Message 178 of 1511
26 June 2012 at 9:45pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
Why don't you pronounce soft L in Russian, while you do it in other languages? All your soft Ls are hard...
tarvos wrote:
I don't even know what soft means in this context.
Palatalized. It would be good appromaximation if you pronounce your French L instead of Russian soft L.
tarvos wrote:
Yeah, but for all the other sounds it doesn't make any sense either.
Why? other consonants must be pronounced with the middle of the tongue raised to the roof of the mouth.

Mapk, palatalization may be kind of difficult to understand (let alone master) for learners not familiar with it, depending on how they're studying, their focus on/understanding of phonetics, etc. I know for a fact that Spanish ñ --very similar to Russian soft n-- is at first extremely difficult for native English speakers to tell apart from n, mostly because there are no such pairs in their language. Now, since I grew up with the n/ñ I never had major problems with hard- vs softness yet I struggle all the time with hard/soft l even if I theoretically know what to do. My Russian friends say Spanish l is just halfway between those two Russian sounds, so I don't need to learn one extra sound but two, and, to make things worse, they are both similar to yet different enough from the one that I spontaneously tend to make.
Sometimes a little elaboration is necessary :)

Solfrid Cristin wrote:
... This is what I would call a typical example of Russian directness. ... I would have started praising all the good things, and then mentioned ... things that might be improved.
... I am sure he can handle it, but I think I would have been a little hurt to get this feed back ... :-)

Now this is an interesting issue I bump into all the time. I don't remember a single concrete area in which I react like most people I know (and like), so I tend to avoid direct comments unless I know the addressee either personally or over a long enough period of time. I've given up to understand this at a 'cultural' level (and act accordingly because 'Germans are like this and Japanese like that') since I tend to be interested just in meaningful relationships with interesting people, and the good ones shouldn't be too easy to scare...

Too often I forget that people may be rather unclear on whether something is mostly working or not and/or very different on how [un]important some issues are to them, and I omit that part. When I say right away 'you should work on X,Y,Z' I usually mean that it's mostly OK and it can be further polished by working on that, whereas if I am forced to say something good and I say 'this is so pretty' (or some other thing generally unimportant to me) I mean that it's a general disaster and I haven't found anything more important to praise. Obvious to people who know me well, not so much to others -- bringing the fun in since the 80s ;-)

Edited by mrwarper on 26 June 2012 at 9:55pm

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s0fist
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 Message 179 of 1511
27 June 2012 at 1:34am | IP Logged 
I wouldn't call this directness. I'd sooner call this purposefulness or maybe utilitarianism.
There's a difference between posting a video to receive, option one, encouragement and validation from others and posting a video with express purpose of receiving, possibility number two, corrections and feedback specific enough to allow improvement.

If there's a mismatch between what the author of the video wanted and what the commenter provided, there's little utility because the author failed to receive what s/he wants and the commenter failed to confer his intent/knowledge onto the other. So there's perceived rudeness (by virtue of content) by either or both sides (in the following sense: don't bother me with this useless response vs. don't ask for a response if you didn't want to get one).
If there's no mismatch, there's mutual utility and consequently no rudeness (by virtue of content).

There's of course always a possibility to be rude by virtue of presentation, regardless of whether there's a mismatch between perceived utilities.

So, I don't see Mark's response as being direct or nondirect, but rather I say that Mark was smart enough to model tarvos's RFC as asking for specific criticisms and tarvos was skillful enough to convey to his audience what he was asking for.
Similarly I'm sure when Cristin asks for feedback on her own video she will do so in a way that lets her audience know what she wants, and I'm sure her audience, to wit Mark and tarvos, would be suave enough to shape their responses to fit her utility.
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tarvos
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 Message 180 of 1511
27 June 2012 at 10:33am | IP Logged 
Ain't no way in hell it's both, right?

Nah, I don't mind Mark's commentary - I just don't know what it means practically so I'm
no nearer reaching my goal anyway.
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Марк
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 Message 181 of 1511
27 June 2012 at 11:30am | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Ain't no way in hell it's both, right?

Nah, I don't mind Mark's commentary - I just don't know what it means practically so I'm
no nearer reaching my goal anyway.

You have to raise the middle of the tongue to the roof of your mouth, as if you wanted
to say or [j], and, holding the middle of the tongue in this position, pronounce any
consonant, it will be palatalized. Actually you manage to pronounce soft T and D, for
example.
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mrwarper
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 Message 182 of 1511
27 June 2012 at 12:39pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Ain't no way in hell it's both, right?
Nah, I don't mind Mark's commentary - I just don't know what it means practically so I'm no nearer reaching my goal anyway.

Heh, so much for trying to help ;(

OK, I recurrently link this which I always thought should help with pronunciation so let's give it another try.

Марк wrote:
You have to raise the middle of the tongue to the roof of your mouth, as if you wanted to say [ I] or [j], and, holding the middle of the tongue in this position, pronounce any consonant, it will be palatalized. Actually you manage to pronounce soft T and D, for example.

@Марк, would you mind commenting on that link for the umpteenth time? My Russian friends were never a great help with that part anyway and, according to the figures, the middle part of the tongue isn't raised for neither hard nor soft "l" -- OK, in soft l the middle is a bit higher, but it is seemingly just because the tip is risen higher and more to the back, with the whole tongue forming more or less a straight line.

Edited by mrwarper on 27 June 2012 at 12:43pm

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Марк
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 Message 183 of 1511
27 June 2012 at 1:08pm | IP Logged 
probably it is correct, the recording is certainly correct. For hard L make sure you do
not touch the alveols by any part of the tongue, only teeth. Soft L is close to Russian
soft, especially in the end of a syllable. If you follow my instruction, you will get the
sound right.
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Random review
Diglot
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 Message 184 of 1511
27 June 2012 at 1:18pm | IP Logged 
Sorry to go off topic, I don't study Russian but can I just ask mrwarper if he knows an
equivalent to that link he posted (the Russian phonetics one) for any other languages?
I'd love to find such a thing for Greek, for instance. Thanks in advance and sorry for
going off topic.


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