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Using preterito perfecto as indefinido? | ||
Tags: Verbs/Conjugation | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Nature Diglot Groupie Canada Joined 5046 days ago 63 posts - 80 votes  Speaks: English*, French | Message 1 of 10 07 February 2012 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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My Spanish teacher told me that in Spain, they mostly use the preterito perfecto as the preterito
indefinido. Is this true? She said it's obviously not correct (but whos to say whats correct in language?) and I'd still need to learn indefinido but its most definitely used a lot more there than anywhere else. Would it be acceptable to use perfecto as indefinido in regular, casual speech? Perfecto is a lot more easier for me to remember (due to the similarity to Italian passato prossimo he/ho has/hai ha/ha caminado/caminato) than indefinido so I hope this is true! Ill just tell people I learnt my Spanish in Spain :P Edited by Nature on 07 February 2012 at 11:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5262 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 2 of 10 07 February 2012 at 11:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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No, it is not true. Spaniards do use préterito indefindo, and there is no way around it. However, Spaniards tend to
use pretérito perfecto in a few situations where speakers of Latin American Spanish would use pretérito indefinido instead. Edited by tractor on 07 February 2012 at 11:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| AndrewW Newbie United States Joined 4816 days ago 29 posts - 60 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 3 of 10 08 February 2012 at 12:02am | IP Logged | |||||
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There are places in Latin America where the opposite is true. In Argentina, the present perfect is very rarely used,
especially in everyday speech. So you'd be safe going the other way. ;) Perhaps that's what your teacher was trying to say. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4758 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 4 of 10 08 February 2012 at 6:26am | IP Logged | |||||
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Unfortunately, you can't get around not using the indefinido, Spanish simply never replaced its usage as French and Italian did their simple pasts with the Passe Compose or Passato Prossimo.
Spanish retains the temporal distinction between Present Perfect vs Simple Past, and it would just not sound correct at all to use the Perfect tense when the indefinido is required. What was said by the first two posters is accurate, however I would add that even in Argentina the Perfect is used in situations where the indefinido is not, for example on tv you will hear when a press conference has ended "ha concluido la conferencia" and NOT "concluyó la conferencia", it just sounds wrong and unprofessional. It's a matter of "temporal" leniency lol. In Spain you use the Perfect for past events of up to 24 hours in age. In Argentina Rioplatense, it's only for events that have just immediately ended. But in the west where I'm from it is used a bit more than in most of Argentina. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Quique Diglot Senior Member Spain cronopios.net/Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4491 days ago 183 posts - 313 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, German | Message 5 of 10 08 February 2012 at 9:53am | IP Logged | |||||
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That's absolutely not true: we use both.
Preterito perfecto is used when the unit of time is still going on. Eg: Hoy he comido lentejas. Preterito indefinido is used when the unit of time is already gone. Eg: Ayer comí lentejas. You will never ever hear something like `Ayer he comido lentejas'. I'm afraid you can't avoid learning the indefinido. (I mean, people will understand what you mean, but it's plain wrong.) The opposite is true, as in Latin America (and some regions in Spain) they tend not to use the Preterito perfecto, so you might hear `Hoy comí lentejas'. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Quique Diglot Senior Member Spain cronopios.net/Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4491 days ago 183 posts - 313 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, German | Message 6 of 10 08 February 2012 at 9:57am | IP Logged | |||||
Not exactly: it depends on the unit of time you're talking about. For instance, I'd say Este mes he trabajado mucho. Este año no he viajado al extranjero. if the month/year is not finished yet. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Camundonguinho Triglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4558 days ago 273 posts - 500 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Spanish Studies: Swedish | Message 7 of 10 09 February 2012 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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-Ayer he ido- has two interpretations:
1. presente perfecto psicológico- according to Manuel Seco: ''Según las circunstancias, podríamos decir: La guerra terminó hace tres meses, o La guerra ha terminado hace tres meses.'' 2. interpretación perfectiva o de aoristo (Manual de la nueva gramática de la RAE): -El pretérito perfecto compuesto admite además una segunda interpretación, la llamada interpretación perfectiva o de aoristo, como en Ha muerto hace dos meses (uso característico del español boliviano, pero presente también en otras variedades), donde ha muerto adquiere el significado que corresponde a murió. La interpretación de antepresente de he cantado se registra en la zona central y meridional del español europeo, en el costeño peruano, en el andino boliviano y colombiano, en el noroeste de la Argentina (desde Tucumán hasta la frontera con Bolivia), en la región central de este país (especialmente en el noroeste de Córdoba) y, con mayores restricciones, también en Cuba y otras zonas del área antillana.- [RAE, Nueva Gramática, manual; 23.4.1b (página 438)] Some examples from literature: ''Anteayer he recibido una carta de un amigo de la huerta, Trinitario Ferrer,'' ( Miguel Hernández) ''Ayer y anteayer he estado en la cama de achaque de una rascadura y un poco de gota, que no me parece que entra con furia, y hoy me he levantado…'' Cartas de Felipe II a sus hijas ''Ayer he ido por primera vez a ver a uno de los más nuevos...'' De Pablo Neruda a Héctor Eandi Also, in movies: Pero que además, el interno no ha solicitado ninguna visita. -Es que no sabe que estoy en Madrid, he llegado ayer. ( Hable con ella). More information here: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pret%C3%A9rito_perfecto_compues to#Uso_matizado I have a friend from Valladolid who uses a lot Pretérito Perfecto Compuesto almost exclusively, even with past adverbials like ayer... I asked him about this usage, and he answered me, that every region in Spain uses these tenses differently, so you may hear: Ya me lo dijiste (instead of Ya me lo has dicho) and Ayer he ido (instead of Ayer fui). So many stylistic, regional and even personal factors come into play that any general rule is just a broad approximation. '''Ni siquiera un renglón ayer he escrito, que es para mí fortuna nunca vista; hice por la mañana la conquista de una graciosa ninfa a quien visito. '' Tomás de Iriarte y Oropesa (18 de septiembre de 1750 - 17 de septiembre de 1791) Poeta español. http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Ni_siquiera_un_rengl%C3%B3n_ay er_he_escrito http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Ni_siquiera_un_rengl%C3%B3n_ay er_he_escrito And in the subjunctive mood you will hear present perfect even in Latin America: ''Espero que lo hayas hecho anteayer'' Both ''Ayer he ido'' and ''Ya lo vi'' are plentiful in Spanish language literature. There is no correct and incorrect usage, just like in the case of English: I already did it ~ I've already done it. In Northern Spain, ya me lo dijiste means You've aleady told me and I don't want to talk about it, ya me lo has dicho means ''You've already told me that, and I want to talk about it'' me he comprado unos sapatos guapos, ayer, están aquí... using the compound form you're making it sound very important to you at the moment of speaking: Mi madre murió hace 2 meses. = My mother died 2 month's ago, and I'm over it. Mi madre ha muerto hace 2 meses = My mother died 2 months ago, and I still can't stop thinking about her. So, don't trust what grammarians (who thing languages are like mathematics) say, from Madrid up, you will hear both Ya lo hice and Ya lo he hecho Ayer fui and Ayer he ido. But there are differences in meaning. The compound form gives ''momentary relevance'' to the action made in the past. To those who say it's incorrect to use the pretérito perfecto compuesto with past adverbials I can only say: I have more than 1000 documented examples taken from contemporary literature (both novels and poetry), mostly Spain-made, but also some South American tokens. Edited by Camundonguinho on 09 February 2012 at 6:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Quique Diglot Senior Member Spain cronopios.net/Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4491 days ago 183 posts - 313 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, German | Message 8 of 10 10 February 2012 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
Right. There are even doctoral theses about this subject, such as this one: http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut /hum/romaa/vk/kempas/estudios.pdf But I guess Nature is not doing lisguistic research, and just want to know what the educated standard is as a general rule. I'd not that this rule is merely a broad approximation. Quoting the above referenced thesis:
The 1st interpretation («Mi madre ha muerto hace 2 meses») is very true. But it is used sparingly (it's the exception, not the rule, and not something that a beginner in Spanish should care about). The 2nd one seems to be a regional thing, and I've never heard it. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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