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Grammar charts vs your view of the world

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zenmonkey
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Germany
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 Message 9 of 19
16 February 2012 at 6:46pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Oh, so interesting! yes I remember seeing this :)
Do these grey, red, green, blue lines connect identical forms? To me these identical forms are more of a problem with German articles.
It's really interesting that Arabic helps you make sense of German:)

What's the software/site you used for this? And have you tried a similar system for verbs?


Exactly right, I was having issues with German and was trying to see how my understanding in other languages mapped (FR/EN/SP) and then I added Arabic to see if I would experience the same issues. I've since then learned the Arabic will be a complete new puzzle as the MSA written and locally spoken pronouns are quite different. I need to start doing some basic maps for Arabic. These help me a lot, early on if they are not too cluttered. (This one sits on the fridge and the girls make language comments off of it). The lines do indeed link to identical forms and show how they relate or not to the other languages or across German case. It was a German focus tool for me.

The software is a mind map editor called FreeMind (<-link, free), there are others that are better but this one is free and i can use it across several computers. I'll use Powerpoint or just tables in Excel for a lot of little things that don't require much linkage. The mindmap software takes a few examples to get going but is incredibly fast if you use the keyboard shortcuts - that map took maybe 30 minutes total to make and refine.
I can also use photoshop for some projects and several years ago (wow - 11-12!) I developped little flash animations to help my oldest daughter learn English conjugates, I don't have the time nor the intent to do that (but I thought about it for the Arabic alphabet!! Enough to look into a game design). But that is another set of non-study time-eaters!

I've used something like this mind map for morphemes in German but not so much for verb cases because I had a tendancy to internalize verb use (FR/EN/SP) in a way that has my own unfettered mapping (I know it is right but I can't tell you why) versus a classical/structured understanding of grammar. This fails me in German and I am left with needing to study and learn not only the German grammar but the basis of Grammar.
It is no help that the terms for grammar differ a lot (A LOT :( ) in German, English and French - I spend too much time thinking and asking what is that L3 tense in L1 or L2?

I have not taken yet the time to break down Arabic for myself because I've been too focused on just churning through some initial lessons, but it is coming.

Edited by zenmonkey on 16 February 2012 at 6:51pm

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tozick
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Poland
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 Message 10 of 19
16 February 2012 at 6:50pm | IP Logged 
Oh and one more thing about the cases. What names did you(I suppose that's a question to Serpent in particular) use? What I mean is we use the Polish names and don't really learn the nominative/gentitive etc. So when you try to talk about them to someone who doesn't know our order there's this 1 more problem of not knowing their 'Latin' names. For us they're:

nominative - mianownik
genitive - dopełniacz
dative - celownik
accusative - biernik
instrumental - narzędnik
locative - miejscownik
vocative - wołacz
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Serpent
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serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 11 of 19
16 February 2012 at 8:41pm | IP Logged 
Yeah, we use Russian names but they are mostly direct translations of the words nominative, genitive etc.

nominative - именительный imenitel'ny
genitive - родительный roditel'ny
dative - дательный datel'ny
accusative - винительный vinitel'ny (never made sense to me haha)
(instrumental - творительный tvoritelny literally creating/creative
locative - предложный predlozhny literally prepositional
vocative - звательный zvatel'ny - this one is a direct translation but I put it into brackets because it's fallen out of use...there's the colloquial vocative instead, which has no ending. so for example my name is Marina and the colloquial form is Marin :D I don't like it tbh. can be used with masculine nouns too if they end in a: pap (papa), Sash (Sasha). but that's never discussed at school, I suppose they want everyone to be aware it's just colloquial)
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zenmonkey
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Germany
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 Message 12 of 19
17 February 2012 at 1:33am | IP Logged 
Ok, you got me to do Arabic cases, now I've learned this!
Thanks.

Here you have the endings for the different cases and definite/indefinite article of nouns and adjectives. I hope I got it right.



Edited by zenmonkey on 17 February 2012 at 1:40am

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Iversen
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 Message 13 of 19
17 February 2012 at 3:17am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Thanks for the rec about 1 sg and 3 pl. Is it specific to Portuguese or a general observation?


Actually I was referring to Russian
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Serpent
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serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 14 of 19
17 February 2012 at 7:23am | IP Logged 
LOL. I think it's pretty common in other languages too.
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zenmonkey
Bilingual Tetraglot
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Germany
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803 posts - 1119 votes 
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Speaks: EnglishC2*, Spanish*, French, German
Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 15 of 19
17 February 2012 at 1:01pm | IP Logged 
The other issue I have is that the cases in Arabic are often addressed as (subject/object/indirect) in French textbooks rather than (nominative/accusative/genitive).

And to confuse my mind more it seems that the indirect noun, genitive in Arabic is likely to be accusative/dative and rarely genitive in German.

so for me, so far

Arabic
nominative - subject (fr: sujet./S)
accusative - object (fr: complément d'objet direct./D)
genitive - indirect (prepositional/locative/noun modifier) (fr:complément d'objet indirect./I)
(a fake-vocative يا)

German
nominative
accusative
dative
genitive

I had to create a table to get the arabic case + posssessive 'pronoun'



Edited by zenmonkey on 19 February 2012 at 3:23pm

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tommus
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 Message 16 of 19
19 December 2015 at 11:37pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
In Russian I prefer the following order: (vocative) Nominative
'Accusative' Genitive Dative Instrumental Prepositional. It is pretty clear that this is a
reflection of the order in Latin, but there is also a certain logic in it: instead of a
real Accusative Russian uses forms from the Nominative and the Genitive so it is logical to
keep the placeholder 'Accusative' between these two. And the Vocative is a dying and
incomplete case, which in most situations has been squeezed out by the Nominative. With the
place after the Nominative taken by the 'Accusative' the Vocative has to stand before the
Nominative.

With all due respect to Iversen and others who love grammar, I think the above paragraph
could find a place of honour in the "You know you're a language nerd when ..." thread.






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