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Learning Languages Simultaneously

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garyb
Triglot
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ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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1468 posts - 2413 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, French
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 18 of 77
21 March 2012 at 5:33pm | IP Logged 
Fitting in two (one advanced, one beginner) is enough of a struggle for me and I barely manage to keep up, so I do wonder when I see all the logs of people studying more than that. I certainly have the motivation and desire, but the time simply isn't there. But then my life's quite busy by any standard since I work full time and go out most evenings. If I went out less then I could easily devote several hours per day to languages, but my social life's more important to me :)

I can certainly understand the impatience aspect, but I remind myself that the time I'm investing in one language is also an investment into others, both in terms of learning how to learn more efficiently and of the "discount" from knowing a similar language (luckily, most of the languages that interest me are from the same family). I was dying to start Italian for over a year, but I resisted until my French reached a good level, and I'm glad I did because that made Italian so much easier for me and I knew a lot more about language learning in general. So even though I wasn't studying Italian for that time, the time I put into French was effectively also time spent towards Italian.

Perhaps this isn't so relevant to accomplished polyglots who already know a good few languages, but for someone less experienced I really think focusing on one up to a good level before adding in others is the way to go, since once you've learned one language to a good level you have a better idea of how to do it again.
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s0fist
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
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260 posts - 445 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French

 
 Message 19 of 77
22 March 2012 at 3:37am | IP Logged 
geoffw wrote:

When chess masters play simultaneous matches, generally the vast majority of opponents are
so far below their levels that there is basically no thought involved--"wiser about each
player's style" sounds pretty ridiculous to me. In those cases where there are one or more
somewhat challenging opponents, the simultaneous exhibitor will spend essentially no time
on the weak boards, and instead concentrate on spending time thinking at the tough boards.
Even then, the difference in skill is generally so great that simply spending a little
more than zero time is all it takes to overcome the opponent.

I realize my metaphor is not perfect, and I just thought I'd clarify that I was mostly
talking about the similarities between chess and language learning, not just chess per se.
Yes, as long as we're speaking about chess, I realize GMs don't play simultaneous
exhibition matches against opponents with similar elos, most likely those opponents are at
least a 2-4 hundred points below their level, if not more.
I also think that generally the exhibitor doesn't learn much "about the game itself" from
his simultaneous opponents -- this is both in regards to chess and language learning in
general.

But the exhibitor can and does pickup on the opponents tendencies and styles -- this
person is aggressive gambit player, this one is trying for a strategic positional
advantage, and so on -- even if only for the duration of the exhibition match.
And in the spirit of my previous metaphors, people with a dozen languages under their
belt, can play exhibition matches (dabble in multiple languages) and come out having
learned various tidbits about the languages -- the general sound of the language, various
basics about grammar constructs, peculiarities about this or that part of the language,
even if they never touch that language again. That's what I meant by "wiser about each
player's style". I hope that clarifies what I meant, if not, well metaphors can only take
us so far.


geoffw wrote:

Simultaneous exhibition matches are just a display of how superior the exhibitor is
relative to the challengers, and in no way a learning experience for the exhibitor about
the game itself.

And additionally, speaking strictly of chess now, I'd like to point out that (to me)
exhibition matches are not just a display of the GM's superiority over his less learned
opponents. It might be a reasonable statement for the exhibitor him/herself, and if you
are an IM/GM or revolve in that circle you probably know more than I.
At the very least, his opponents might come out with new ideas about chess, tourny play,
etc and their own style. Breaking my metaphor, this forum is an example of experienced LLs
teaching novices. But then again I'm not worthy enough to play chess against GMs, even if
it's only to be made fun of and be a target for their superiority.
The spectators may also learn various things in the process and *gasp* they might even
just enjoy the process.

Oh and btw some places, parks, faires, have been known to provide an opponent for
simultaneous exhibition matches for nominal $1-5 entry fees, and those guys occasionally
loose. My point being that they're not likely to be top notch chess players, but not just
top notch players play exhibition matches and not just for display purposes.
In fact in NYC I sometimes see hustlers (or maybe they're starving GMs?) playing people on
park benches, not for a display of their superior skills, but for money (ex. Union square,
Central park, some other places probably).
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geoffw
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
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1134 posts - 1865 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish
Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian

 
 Message 20 of 77
22 March 2012 at 4:02am | IP Logged 
When I traveled to Russia with a student group, our chaperones told us to watch out for two things: 1) don't drink
the water, and 2) don't play chess with the Russians. I guess arguing a chess metaphor with a Russian-speaker is
dangerously similar. I'm not an IM/GM by any means, just someone who used to play tournaments and was once
better than most average people who aren't Russian. :-)

I've been on both sides of the simul: playing against at most 4 boards, all of them very weak, and as one of a few
dozen boards against an IM (pretty sure he was called Ilya, fwiw)--my great accomplishment there was being one
of the last games finished and one of the few that made him think. I suppose I had better admit that simuls are not
limited to the kind that I experienced.

As one clearly knowledgable when it comes to chess, I trust you'll be understanding of my instinct to jealously
guard the game from any hint of cheap exploitation...I think I'm a little jaded from seeing so many TV shows and
movies with the same old trope, where two supposedly decent chess players are deep in thought, when the
overconfident and boastful underdog is suddenly and brilliantly defeated by the surprise mate in 1...
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Kronos
Diglot
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Germany
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Speaks: German*, English

 
 Message 22 of 77
19 May 2013 at 9:54am | IP Logged 
iguanamon wrote:
Those of you who do study multiple languages simultaneously, why do you do it? Is the pull of the languages so strong that you can't resist studying them all at the same time? Or, do you just love the studying aspect and the end-result of proficiency is just not that important? In other words, is it more about the journey than the destination?

Both.

I always wanted to know French, Italian and Spanish, and recently got captivated by the magnificence of Portuguese. Once I had made up my mind to seriously learn those languages, the mere thought of having to postpone any of them for another couple of years felt like a torture. Eventually I told myself: why not learn them in parallel? There is no need to become proficient in one of them first. And they are all Romance languages and closely related to each other.

The journey itself is already a fascinating experience, and this is largely due to the material. Studying four languages at the same time either through grammar or a communicative approach would give me headaches, so I opted for Assimil, slowly growing into those languages so to say. The oldest generation of their manuals ("without Toil") is almost ideally suited for comparative study of just those four languages. They are comprehensive, highly entertaining and a bit quirky, I am fond of the accompanying audio material, and all four courses were written by the same author and are similarly structured. If you meet a new grammatical phenomenon in Lesson 20 of the Portuguese course you are likely to meet the equivalent of it in Lesson 18, 20 or 23 in the Italian or French or Spanish course as well. They proceed at approximately the same pace.

iguanamon wrote:
I've always been curious about what a day/week in the life of a multiple language learner is like. How do you physically do it? How, given a busy schedule and a life outside language learning, do you make the time during a day to devote to multiple language study?

On an average day I will go through one new lesson, or spend half an hour, in each language, that is: two hours a day. This is not much, but even so finishing all four courses including a thorough review or second run should not take more than a year, probably less. At that point I will at least have a good foundation. Afterwards there is plenty of other work to be done, like straightening out the grammar and any loose points, not to speak of getting deeper into more words, more idioms and samples of native content. I am not in a hurry and have no problems to go on like this for years altogether, if necessary. I hope that eventually I will be able to put in more time though.

iguanamon wrote:
Conversely, do you feel that there is a synergy involved in multiple language study that actually helps you to progress more rapidly studying multiple languages than just devoting that time to one language? Is it more efficient for you to study languages simultaneously than consecutively? Would you advise beginners who do not have an L2 to begin studying multiple languages or wait until they have successfully learned an L2 to a high level before taking the plunge into multiple language study? I am looking forward to seeing the responses.

No advice from me, but I would like to share an interesting video. It is by an American based in Puerto Rico, a high school teacher. A couple of months ago he embarked on a minor challenge, studying three related Scandinavian languages at once, mainly in order to find out if the overlap would be more of a help or a hindrance. It turned out to be a success. There are samples of his accomplishment in all three languages on his channel, and considering that he spent less than an hour a day the results so far are quite impressive. He has also made some videos discussing the why and how - the rationale and process - behind it, mostly in English. The best of those however is this one in Spanish:

Análisis del reto de idiomas escandinavos

This guy is really smart and has something calm and confident about him that I find encouraging and worth emulating. It also shows that it is possible to learn multiple languages, even related ones, without getting stressed out or abandoning common sense.

Edited by Kronos on 19 May 2013 at 1:11pm

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kujichagulia
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 4607 days ago

1031 posts - 1571 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Japanese, Portuguese

 
 Message 23 of 77
19 May 2013 at 2:45pm | IP Logged 
As the OPer probably knows already, I study two languages simultaneously: Japanese and Portuguese. I agree that studying one language for multiple hours a day is most effective - if you can do it. But I can't. With my current study schedule, I do one hour of intensive Japanese study a day. If I dropped Portuguese, I doubt that I could take the time I use for Portuguese and study Japanese for two hours. I would burn out, like I've done before. So, why not add an extra language? Besides, Portuguese is a nice, fun diversion from Japanese.

I used to study each language every other day, but I've found this to be somewhat confusing to my brain, so I've switched to studying both languages every day, like other people have posted here.
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leosmith
Senior Member
United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Tagalog

 
 Message 24 of 77
20 May 2013 at 8:38pm | IP Logged 
My theories of multi-language learning have changed significantly over the years. The first time I had to think about your specific questions was in 2005 when I dropped Thai to study Japanese. These were my 4th and 5th languages. Back then, I wasn’t really concerned about maintaining. I thought if I wanted to use my other languages again, I’d worry about it at that time. Didn’t think it would be good to study 2 languages, because of time concerns.

A couple years later I went to Thailand, and was shocked at how bad my Thai was. Luckily, I had a long vacation, so I worked hard and got back close to where I was before by the end of it. After that, I decided to maintain my Thai.

Then I became a believer of another theory regarding multi-language learning. I thought time on task was by far the most important factor. This was partially due to the fact that no matter how intensely I studied, things needed time to sink in. And partially due to this FSI 50 Years of Lessons Learned article. And partially due to the fact that if I ignored a language for a while, after getting reacquainted, I would be even better. My theory was that as long as I got a minimal amount of steady exposure, my mind would sort things out, and I would reach high levels in my languages after several years without having to devote too much energy. It took a long time for me to realize that this was not true, mostly because the theory calls for many years for things to happen. Well, I finally found out they didn’t happen. As an aside, this is where I believe many of the multi-language learners on this forum are now.

Next came my Learning in Spurtsrevelation. This got me actively learning all my languages for at least a few weeks out of the year. It was a big improvement, and although I’ve learned a lot since then, I still use it today. It was as much a lifestyle change as anything else.

Then came a time of great soul searching. I really wanted to know more languages, but what I was doing currently just wouldn’t allow it. I was pretty certain many others had been stopped at the 5-10 language mark because of this time management issue. It’s very rare for someone to speak more than 10 languages at a high level, I noticed; even people making such claims on this forum are rare. After much experimenting, I came to the conclusion that B1/B2 requires 30 min/day to maintain my level. Then I realized my only C1 language, Spanish, wasn’t like that. I’ve never had to maintain it. I started asking around, and found that this was the consensus. So I now believe that if you want to learn many languages to a high level and keep them there, the most efficient path is to learn one at a time to C1/C2. After that, no more studying, just doing the things that you learned the languages for in the first place.

Of course this doesn’t apply if your goal is merely to study, don’t care about your level, etc. But I would definitely advise learners to learn a language to C1/C2 before adding another. There are so many advantages, and so few disadvantages, of learning a single language over multiple languages.

That being said, I haven’t dropped all my languages to focus on one. Even though I’m sure I’ve found the answer, I just have this fear of losing what I’ve gained. Right now I can converse very comfortably in 7 languages; it’s a great feeling just to surf shared talk and fool native speakers for a few minutes, and speak to other multi-learners in several languages. I had a brief period last summer where I had lots of free time and almost made a video. I told myself that I would drop 4 languages after that, and focus on Russian. But I chickened out. That has to change. Give me courage, mon.



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