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Learning japanese in japan | ||
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| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5593 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 9 of 18 22 March 2012 at 10:29am | IP Logged | ||
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It shouldn't be an either/or. For most people it isn't. Even when I was at school I didn't devote every waking minute to my studies.
I think there's a way to do this without making myself a hated outcast at work and with my friends. Edited by Tyr on 22 March 2012 at 10:36am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Kappa Groupie Japan Joined 5331 days ago 99 posts - 172 votes | Message 10 of 18 22 March 2012 at 11:37am | IP Logged | ||
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I kind of know where you're coming from. I once got discouraged by the fact I couldn't talk to native speakers because I spoke no word of English. It's obviously different from your situation since you can hold short conversations. But anyway here's my experience. A few years back, I was at the airport and I had my very first experience to speak to a native English speaker, in person face to face. She asked me if I spoke English, and my brain went complete blank. Nothing occured to my mind and my response, after a little pause, was one simple word, "no" and nothing else. I could understand what she was saying, but I couldn't come up with anything in English. It was really discouraging to me because at that time it seemed to me it wasn't likely I'd get to practice if I didn't know the language well enough. I was out of practice. Matter of fact, I'd never practiced speaking. That's when I realised there was a huge gap between my passive and active skills and that I desperately needed to start making some effort if I actually want to be able to speak the language. Well, I haven't done much since then and although I can enjoy TV shows in English to a degree I still don't speak a word of it, because I don't really need it and I make excuses all the time not to do anything but just stay lazy. But I do know that I have to make some adjustments, sacrifice to get something. You don't go into the store and just take whatever you want. You have to pay the price. You obviously can't have everything you want but you may get what you need.
However, I don't think it's true at all that you can't make friends with Japanese people because you don't speak the language or that you don't speak it because you can't practice with them. You can surely practice on your own and use what you've learnt on them. That's like, to me, saying you can't learn a foreign language without already knowing it. That doesn't add up. Well, I think you already know all that since you speak at least one foregin language apparently. It's up to you whether or not you completely avoid English and immerse yourself in Japanese. It's not necessary, but it appears to be more effective that way. What people are saying is, I think, that you should deliberately make effort to practice, use and expose yourself to the target language as much as possible. You can still hang out with English (or whatever language) speaking friends and make time to practice Japanese while working full-time. Lots of people on the forum seem to manage it. There's no have-to's, or no one specific rule one should follow. it's your choice. But it's true the more devoted you are, the more likely you'll succeed, and faster I guess. The question is, how much are you willing to sacrifice, and how far do you want to go? You certainly don't need to abandon relationships you already have. I don't think anyone would want to do that... What you could do for instance is make more Japanese friends instead of, well, "foreign" ones, do little things in Japanese instead of your native language (e.g. watch news in Japanese), try to use Japanese whenver you have a choice (e.g. talk to your co-workers in Japanese when on breaks), etc. And I'm sure your friends will be supportive of your study. I suppose you could benefit from language exchange partners, too. You can make some adjustments this way. I hope I didn't come across as arrogant or anything like that. If I sounded like that, that wasn't my intention. And I'm sorry my English isn't the best. It really takes time and energy to write more than a paragraph and I'm too tired to go over it to correct mistakes and revise it. Best, Kappa 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| TixhiiDon Tetraglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5275 days ago 772 posts - 1474 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, German, Russian Studies: Georgian | Message 11 of 18 22 March 2012 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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I absolutely understand where you are coming from, having lived in Japan for almost 16
years (gawd, is it really that long?), the first two of which were spent in a small city. The difference in going-out culture is indeed huge - foreigners want to go to foreign type bars while the Japanese end up in enclosed karaoke boxes or sunakku that are impossible to enter as a casual visitor. However, there are midway options between these two styles of nightlife where it is possible to meet, and maybe even become friends with, Japanese people. In the summer it is highly likely that the department stores in your city will open rooftop beer gardens. Grab a bunch of your gaijin mates, go and imbibe there for a few hours, and chances are some curious, drunk Japanese guys will come over for a chat. They probably won't end up becoming your bosom buddies, but it's a good opportunity to actually have a conversation in Japanese. Also, presumably your work colleagues must go out drinking together occasionally, seeing as it is almost obligatory to do so in all Japanese companies. Be sure to go along with them when they do. The 一次会 (first party) may be a little formal and boring, but as the quieter members drop away and you move onto karaoke, or a sunakku, or a hostess bar for the 二次会 or even 三次会, things are likely to become much more relaxed and fun, and you will be allowed to practice your Japanese without feeling bad. Thirdly, try frequenting izakaya. These are the closest you get to a pub as we know it. They are casual, the food is usually pretty good, and they can get quite raucous and fun. Again, chances are at some point you'll get some worse-for-wear salarymen or university students at your table, asking "Where are you from?" and telling you "This is a pen!", at which point you try out the equivalents in Japanese and general hilarity ensues. You're actually lucky living in a small city rather than Tokyo since people in the capital are (1) too busy, (2) too used to seeing foreigners, and (3) altogether too sophisticated and cosmopolitan to want to chat to random gaijin. I had many many experiences like those I've described above in Hamamatsu, but very few here in Tokyo. Taking advantage of Japanese nightlife is probably your best option. Japanese people are always good-natured drunks and they lose some of their natural reserve after a few beers. By the way, I agree absolutely that it is neither necessary nor desirable to "go native". You may indeed end up speaking better Japanese, but you will always be the odd one out, never completely accepted by either the expat community or Japanese society, and that's not a fun way to live. Edited by TixhiiDon on 22 March 2012 at 12:38pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6760 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 12 of 18 23 March 2012 at 4:56am | IP Logged | ||
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<well-intentioned kick in the pants>
With all due respect, this sounds like a list of excuses to me, too. For one thing, you're seriously holding yourself back because you're worried about your image to other foreigners? You don't want to be "THAT GUY"? Are you serious?! You'd much rather be "THAT GUY" who has lived in Japan for years in an ex-pat bubble without learning how to speak the language, going everywhere with Anglophone friends and complaining among each other about how Japanese is so hard? If you were suddenly told that you have to go home next week, would you really be satisfied that you took full advantage of the opportunity to experience Japan during your time here? Or would you say, "It's all good, at least I got to watch sports and didn't betray the other foreigners"? There's no wrong answer, but you should think honestly about which one is more important to you. I've been in the same situation where I didn't really try as hard as I could have because I felt like I had all the time in the world, and then when I had to go home it was like I noticed for the first time how much I had wasted the opportunities at my disposal for stupid reasons (the stupidest: "I'm just a really nice person, so I'm happy to give Japanese people the chance to practice their English"). It was a huge source of regret for me. So however you decide to arrange your priorities, make sure you do it in a way that you won't regret later. </well-intentioned kick in the pants> And hopefully this will put your mind at ease: Immersion doesn't means you will be shunned and hated by other foreigners and will lose all your hobbies and sense of self. This is my second stay in Japan, and this time around I guess you could say I'm being "THAT GIRL"... but I don't think anyone (either Japanese or ex-pat) sees it that way. I visit a "gaijin bar" or go to an ex-pat party or event about once a month (for one thing, there is nothing like that within an hour's drive of where I live... and you think you're in a small town, with apparently multiple establishments that cater to foreigners! Sounds like you might as well be in Tokyo to me ;) ) I have foreign friends/acquaintances and we get along well, despite not hanging out that much. I've turned down invitations for the sake of maintaining immersion (saying I have other plans) , but I'm not resented for it and I hang out and do the same things with my local friends so I don't feel like I'm missing out much. I've stopped doing some things I used to like, and found new things that I wouldn't have tried if I hadn't given myself the chance. So all in all, I think immersion has been more of a fun growing experience than the ascetic one you seem to be imagining. I've gained so much more than I've given up. And finally, with regard to your Japanese coworkers, I know how hard it can be to switch the language once a relationship is established, and how embarrassing it can be to struggle in a language when your frustrated and impatient 相手 just wants to make it easier on everyone and switch to English. One possible workaround is to take a cue from Benny the Irish Polyglot and announce a, say, 2-week mission to speak only in Japanese. Whether you like what Benny does or not, I think this tactic would motivate both you (because of the urgency created by the deadline) and any Japanese speakers you might meet. Benny says that when he comes across native speakers who are less than enthusiastic about speaking to him in the local language, he tells them about his "mission" and suddenly they are super motivated to help him succeed. I think your coworkers might feel the same way; even though communicating in Japanese is an inconvenience for them and feels unnatural, if they can see that you're taking your "mission" absolutely seriously then I think their admiration and enthusiasm to see you succeed would overrule that. The trick on your end is to be stubborn about it no matter how stupid you feel or how much you want to ease communication for the other party. Whatever initial embarrassment, awkwardness, irritation, etc. there might be will soon wear off and it will become a natural habit for everyone. But it doesn't work at all if you don't stubbornly stick to it 100%. I think that if you gave this a serious try, it could be a game-changer for you. Sorry for the long post, and good luck! Edited by Lucky Charms on 23 March 2012 at 5:20am 9 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5593 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 13 of 18 01 April 2012 at 3:03am | IP Logged | ||
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Sorry for the late reply, I've been on holiday.
I appreciate the help but I have to defend myself here that I'm not making excuses. The challenges I'm identifying are what I see as the actual challenges standing in my way, challenges which have to be worked around in some way. Not reasons why I shouldn't bother. Also as a minor point- my city is very small. On paper its pretty big but in terms of facilities there is really just the one pub. And no sports. Its not that I only go to the gaijin bar because I want to avoid Japanese people. Its that I go there as its the only pub. I'd love it if there was somewhere more Japanesey I could go to speak nonsense with drunken salarymen but as it stands I either go there or I stay at home. The main task which I need to do is to figure out what words are most necessary for conversation. If I can have a basic conversation at least then the more complicated words can be learned through practicing. As things stand now though....I'm not really at the level where I can make an attempt. The idea of speaking nothing but Japanese is nice (though a non-starter at work) but if I were to try that at my current level my conversations would amount to little more than "Hello. Nice to meet you. Do you like dogs? My hovercraft is full of eels. A hovercraft? Its....a.....ship-car.....thing...." So...its a very broad and hard question but....any clues on words which are utterly vital for simple conversation? Edited by Tyr on 01 April 2012 at 3:04am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| aquablue Senior Member United States Joined 6193 days ago 150 posts - 172 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 14 of 18 05 May 2012 at 3:14am | IP Logged | ||
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Slightly off topic, but I was wondering how easy it is to get a job in Japan without
knowing the language. Would you mind giving me a general overview? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5594 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian | Message 15 of 18 05 May 2012 at 6:35am | IP Logged | ||
The people I know who work in Japan who either don't speak Japanese or speak very little: 1) Teach English 2) Are in the US military 3) Work in finance 4) Came as an intra-company transfer (manager, VP level) I hear that it's possible to get jobs in IT without much Japanese ability though, like finance, the jobs are rarely entry-level. I'm not sure what the Japanese skills of the average factory worker in Japan is but my guess is that one needs functional Japanese even for that. I'm sure there are some other, niche jobs out there as well. It may also be worth noting that, though many companies use English as their official working language, Japanese is often still the language of every day office communication, as well as water cooler banter and after work gatherings. It's hard to get away without at least conversational Japanese unless you are the one giving orders or have some specialized expertise. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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